Pros and Cons of a Free to Distribute Rulebook
- Thread starter Gilwing
- Start date
Re: Redefining and Reviewing
From what Mike V. says, the $6 for the Electric ARB goes almost toally into the pockets of the Publication Company for support of their online warehouse. That is, it's being sold for "At" or "Very Near" cost of what the company is charging to house and disseminate the manuscript. It's not a revnue stream but the cost of doing business. To me, that seems like a pretty good deal and as close to "free" as we'll ever get.
From what Mike V. says, the $6 for the Electric ARB goes almost toally into the pockets of the Publication Company for support of their online warehouse. That is, it's being sold for "At" or "Very Near" cost of what the company is charging to house and disseminate the manuscript. It's not a revnue stream but the cost of doing business. To me, that seems like a pretty good deal and as close to "free" as we'll ever get.
jpariury
Paragon
Re: Redefining and Reviewing
Sadly, the government entities that require corporation fees (whether for-profit or not), the distribution companies that put together the physical rulebook (and by extension require that the electronic version go through them as well), the isps that allow us all to yammer on at one another and is largely responsible for letting the organization be administered by digital ones and zeroes, and the like don't. Even with a near-100% volunteer organization, there are financial costs to the yutzes who put the whole thing together, and if they try and cover a portion of those costs by charging less than the price of a movie ticket for an electronic version of their rulebook, I'm not gonna be the guy who says "You evil profiteer!".Gilwing said:
Re: Redefining and Reviewing
I don't begrudge anybody getting rewarded for their hard work, but as I understand it, a lot of work goes into that rulebook from people other than the name on the cover, and they all do it because they want the game to be better. So, the question is: would we have a better, more approachable game with a free rulebook? As Mike V has said several times, a publisher does a lot for a book, and making it free online would kill any relationship with an electronic publisher. I happen to know that you can have such an arrangement with a print publisher, but it's much much harder. I'm not quite convinced that the channels that publishers open up to us really help us get new players, though. We tend to get new players through word-of-mouth, and a freely-copyable version is much less of a commitment to see what it's all about. But I also don't think making it free would go that much toward getting new people interested, as the price for an electronic copy is a pittance compared to the cost to go to a game. I think it would make a difference for a few people, though, which I think is more people than search for "LARP rule book" on Amazon and find our game that way.jpariury said:
EricMarsters
Elite
Re: Redefining and Reviewing
However, one big question to ask is - how would having the book be free affect the copyright on the rules system?
elliotbay said:
However, one big question to ask is - how would having the book be free affect the copyright on the rules system?
SkollWolfrun
Virtuous
Re: Redefining and Reviewing
Far as I remember, copyright can protect anything in print regardless of if it's paid for or not...see any number of free web-comics. During a pod-cast by PVP creator Scott Kurtz, they touched on it briefly and that was the gist of what they stated...I could listen to it to refresh the memory but not right now.
EricMarsters said:
Far as I remember, copyright can protect anything in print regardless of if it's paid for or not...see any number of free web-comics. During a pod-cast by PVP creator Scott Kurtz, they touched on it briefly and that was the gist of what they stated...I could listen to it to refresh the memory but not right now.
Nope! The copyright holder can release his work under whatever license he likes, and still maintain copyright. The only catch is that you can't turn around and sue someone for doing something you gave them permission to do. But you can, for example, say that people can freely distribute a work as long as they make no money off of it, or alter it in any way. Creative Commons is an easy way to do permissive licenses.EricMarsters said:
PS - Thanks for the split, SD.
Lurin
Paragon
I hate to say it, but I'm not sure that free is the best way to get people invested, there is a point at which I think it actually hurts you to devalue your service or game, after all if you don't believe in it enough to think it's worth as much as 20 minutes pay for your average worker (or an hour for minimum wage earners) Ultimately a group that doesn't have enough faith in their product to say 'yeah, it cost a few dollars but is worth it' is going to have trouble keeping new members. I think spending 6 bucks for an online version, or having borrowed a book invests people a little bit more to actually read the book then the latest in a long line of free torrents ^.^
Mike Ventrella
Paragon
As I said before, the important thing about having the book available as an ebook through my publisher is this:
It's available through my publisher.
This means it can be found anywhere. You can go to Barnes&Noble, Amazon, or any ebook distributor on the net and you'll find it. It can be found in stores in other countries. If you do a google search for LARP Rulebooks it will show up with a link to a reliable seller, which makes us look a lot more professional than just some LARP putting it on their webpage.
The publisher makes sure it's available in every format, including kindle and nook and whatever else new will come out. No matter what kind of reader you have, you can get the book.
If you got to his web page, it will show up along with all the fantasy novels he sells -- especially if you happen to be browsing one of my novels, which are indeed sales pitches for our game.
If we start giving it away, can you guess what my publisher will do? If you guessed "drop us like a hot potato" give yourself 10 points! :thumbsup:
The amount made on each book is indeed minor. With the paperbacks, I usually lose money actually in the long run, especially when sold through Amazon which pays me $7 a book (and then I have to pay $5 to ship it to them). And then usually I end up with a useless boxful in my basement when the new edition comes out and I have to just eat the losses.
I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, personally.
It's available through my publisher.
This means it can be found anywhere. You can go to Barnes&Noble, Amazon, or any ebook distributor on the net and you'll find it. It can be found in stores in other countries. If you do a google search for LARP Rulebooks it will show up with a link to a reliable seller, which makes us look a lot more professional than just some LARP putting it on their webpage.
The publisher makes sure it's available in every format, including kindle and nook and whatever else new will come out. No matter what kind of reader you have, you can get the book.
If you got to his web page, it will show up along with all the fantasy novels he sells -- especially if you happen to be browsing one of my novels, which are indeed sales pitches for our game.
If we start giving it away, can you guess what my publisher will do? If you guessed "drop us like a hot potato" give yourself 10 points! :thumbsup:
The amount made on each book is indeed minor. With the paperbacks, I usually lose money actually in the long run, especially when sold through Amazon which pays me $7 a book (and then I have to pay $5 to ship it to them). And then usually I end up with a useless boxful in my basement when the new edition comes out and I have to just eat the losses.
I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, personally.
Mike Ventrella
Paragon
Re: Redefining and Reviewing
There are definitely costs to producing the books -- I do buy software, paper to print out proofreading copies, ink for the printer, and so on as I'm sure everyone is aware.
And I really don't need goblin stamps.
And of course there is the cost of buying a whole bunch of paperbacks in the hope that they will sell.
If you think I'm making a huge profit off of these you're mistaken! The last royalty check I got from my publisher for ALL of my books (fiction included) allowed Heidi and I to go out for dinner and then it was all gone.
jpariury said:
There are definitely costs to producing the books -- I do buy software, paper to print out proofreading copies, ink for the printer, and so on as I'm sure everyone is aware.
And I really don't need goblin stamps.
And of course there is the cost of buying a whole bunch of paperbacks in the hope that they will sell.
If you think I'm making a huge profit off of these you're mistaken! The last royalty check I got from my publisher for ALL of my books (fiction included) allowed Heidi and I to go out for dinner and then it was all gone.
Need to stop going to these fancy dinner parties there boss! http://www.chinatownconnection.com/bankok-most-expensive-dinner.htm
Parrott
Parrott
Mike Ventrella
Paragon
:wacko:tolgar undershaft said:
We went to Olive Garden, actually. I even joked about it on my Facebook page. :thumbsup:
Unlimited soup and salad...... How could you go wrong with that choice. 
There's certainly a price signaling effect when you charge for things. It's well documented that there is a higher placebo effect if you pay more for a drug than if you don't. I don't think that's necessarily true for things you watch or read, however. Consider the popularity of shows on network television versus shows on HBO. People didn't think the SImpsons must not be any good because they don't have to pay to watch it. Author Cory Doctorow has achieved immense popularity largely, I would argue, through giving away his books. The vast majority of the software I run on my desktop computer is free.Lurin said:
I remain unconvinced that the services a publisher provides truly nets us more players over a low-commitment hook. I suppose Mike V could answer this question and perhaps change my mind: what portion of physical rulebook sales come from (a) chapters ordering and selling copies, (b) the website form, (c) Amazon, and (d) other retailers?
Edit: What portion of e-book sales come from (a) the Double Dragon site, (b) Amazon, and (c) other would be useful I suppose, too.
Mike Ventrella
Paragon
Since the book became available for download, we have sold very few paperbacks. Amazon buys maybe ten a month, if that. Chapters hardly ever buy them, which disappoints me in that I worry that there are none available for new players who may show up and want to buy one.
There's really no way of telling how many ebooks come from Amazon or Double Dragon. There is one central clearinghouse for ebooks -- a place called Fictionwise. Pretty much everything goes through them. If you order it from DD or Amazon or B&N, they're the ones who really supply it. They then send a check every six months to Double Dragon who then sends me whatever pennies are leftover afterwards.
But it's not the amount that matters to me -- it's the fact that it is widely distributed and available to everyone, including those who may have never heard of us and who may come across it while browsing.
There's really no way of telling how many ebooks come from Amazon or Double Dragon. There is one central clearinghouse for ebooks -- a place called Fictionwise. Pretty much everything goes through them. If you order it from DD or Amazon or B&N, they're the ones who really supply it. They then send a check every six months to Double Dragon who then sends me whatever pennies are leftover afterwards.
But it's not the amount that matters to me -- it's the fact that it is widely distributed and available to everyone, including those who may have never heard of us and who may come across it while browsing.
But that's only useful if people do come across it while browsing and become interested. I claim that people become interested in the game, and then buy the rulebook, rather than finding the rulebook, deciding it looks fun, and trying out the game. If people don't end up buying the book from these other retailers, then it's not useful that they offer them. If there is data that contradicts my claim, I'll take it back, but I don't think that making it present for those who are browsing actually gets us players, and I think there are a few people who would check out a free e-book on a whim because they saw our website and get more interested.Fearless Leader said:
Just because there is value in making a free e-book available to people who find us on the web doesn't mean it has to be our rulebook.
If we felt that having some sort of publication available that talked about our game at a high level and included some of the details (races, background, etc) as opposed to a comprehensive rule set it could be done. (Relatively easily I might add.)
Mike has said in the past that our product isn't the rules... it is the stories told within the framework provided by those rules.
Stephen
National PR
If we felt that having some sort of publication available that talked about our game at a high level and included some of the details (races, background, etc) as opposed to a comprehensive rule set it could be done. (Relatively easily I might add.)
Mike has said in the past that our product isn't the rules... it is the stories told within the framework provided by those rules.
Stephen
National PR
dragonfire8974
Expert
personally i would like to see a free sample rules version that would have some beginner things in it, but not the whole system in it so someone can know enough to get started but before there is a real investment in a character.
I would say putting in some character creation rules in there and something explaining the basics of combat as well as an introduction
but that's my perspective
Edit: This would also be an opportunity for people to look and see if they would wanna try it without having to pay anything. it could widen the distribution of material
I would say putting in some character creation rules in there and something explaining the basics of combat as well as an introduction
but that's my perspective
Edit: This would also be an opportunity for people to look and see if they would wanna try it without having to pay anything. it could widen the distribution of material
WoW, I didn't intend for this to become that huge?
Please don't take this the wrong way, it is not intended to come off as sarcastic or being rude but do we (The Alliance LARP) really need your publisher if there is nothing to publish?
Maybe I miss understand the whole process, but I was suggesting that we do the whole rule book our self (a committee) w/o any third party. While I agree that under $10 for a electronic copy of the rules is not that bank breaking, it looks bad when we get a new player interested and we tell them, in order to better under stand our game/community you should buy a rule book (I agree that this is the most important step). It sounds like we are saying, "Hey, I'm glad you are interested, give us money".
I have seen plenty of larps that offer the rule book as a link on there website. It's a great way to jump into the game, getting a huge understanding.
Fearless Leader said:
Please don't take this the wrong way, it is not intended to come off as sarcastic or being rude but do we (The Alliance LARP) really need your publisher if there is nothing to publish?
Maybe I miss understand the whole process, but I was suggesting that we do the whole rule book our self (a committee) w/o any third party. While I agree that under $10 for a electronic copy of the rules is not that bank breaking, it looks bad when we get a new player interested and we tell them, in order to better under stand our game/community you should buy a rule book (I agree that this is the most important step). It sounds like we are saying, "Hey, I'm glad you are interested, give us money".
I have seen plenty of larps that offer the rule book as a link on there website. It's a great way to jump into the game, getting a huge understanding.
David,
In fairness, we are also trying to distinguish ourselves from those other LARPs. Having a professionally printed and commercially available rulebook IS a point of distinction (assuming it is leveraged properly).
Stephen
National PR
In fairness, we are also trying to distinguish ourselves from those other LARPs. Having a professionally printed and commercially available rulebook IS a point of distinction (assuming it is leveraged properly).
Stephen
National PR