What nobility wears - aka who doesn't have *#&# all over

[markusdark]

But honestly I don't think its really all that fair to complain that our system is not "accurate" or "realistic" combat, when it does not set itself out to be such. It's meant to be representational.

Actually, it is fair to say that the alliance system isn't accurate or realistic because it isn't. Just because you don't set out to make it that way doesn't mean it can't be called that. It would be akin to saying that you can't say a red room isn't blue because you intended to paint it red. Now I'm not saying that the combat system doesn't work nor that the ruleset isn't good - I'm just saying that if someone is looking for a game that recreates combat more 'realistically' (as realistic as you can get with orcs and fireballs), the Alliance is far from that.

My VERY first encounter with NERO was at a fighter practice. I watched as a PC ran into a group of orcs, grabbed the item they needed and ran out again, all the while getting beat upon by them. But the PC knew he had the body and armor points to do it without any real worry of dropping. Although this is an extreme, it is a valid tactic within the Alliance ruleset and I have seen it more than once where a player's entire attitude changes based upon the first damage call they hear and simply wade into blows knowing full well that they can withstand the hits until they beat the other down. And, if by some miracle/trick they do get dropped, like others have said, a quick "Cure Light Wounds" spell, potion or elixir and they're all good (as in no fear of dying).

Want to know the type of game I like to play in? Play a weekend game of Alliance where there is no Earth Magic - including no Earth Circles. Then you're approaching the flavor I enjoy.

 

[Hammerfist]

But honestly I don't think its really all that fair to complain that our system is not "accurate" or "realistic" combat, when it does not set itself out to be such. It's meant to be representational.

Actually, it is fair to say that the alliance system isn't accurate or realistic because it isn't. Just because you don't set out to make it that way doesn't mean it can't be called that. It would be akin to saying that you can't say a red room isn't blue because you intended to paint it red. Now I'm not saying that the combat system doesn't work nor that the ruleset isn't good - I'm just saying that if someone is looking for a game that recreates combat more 'realistically' (as realistic as you can get with orcs and fireballs), the Alliance is far from that.

My VERY first encounter with NERO was at a fighter practice. I watched as a PC ran into a group of orcs, grabbed the item they needed and ran out again, all the while getting beat upon by them. But the PC knew he had the body and armor points to do it without any real worry of dropping. Although this is an extreme, it is a valid tactic within the Alliance ruleset and I have seen it more than once where a player's entire attitude changes based upon the first damage call they hear and simply wade into blows knowing full well that they can withstand the hits until they beat the other down. And, if by some miracle/trick they do get dropped, like others have said, a quick "Cure Light Wounds" spell, potion or elixir and they're all good (as in no fear of dying).

Want to know the type of game I like to play in? Play a weekend game of Alliance where there is no Earth Magic - including no Earth Circles. Then you're approaching the flavor I enjoy.

He never said you could not say it. In fact he states that Alliance combat is exactly that... Innaccurate and Unrealistic. What I believe he is saying is that it is tough to complain about a scenerio "realistic and accurate combat" that does not seem to be intended in the first place. That is like going to a baseball game and complaining that they did not play football.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

But honestly I don't think its really all that fair to complain that our system is not "accurate" or "realistic" combat, when it does not set itself out to be such. It's meant to be representational.

Actually, it is fair to say that the alliance system isn't accurate or realistic because it isn't. Just because you don't set out to make it that way doesn't mean it can't be called that. It would be akin to saying that you can't say a red room isn't blue because you intended to paint it red. Now I'm not saying that the combat system doesn't work nor that the ruleset isn't good - I'm just saying that if someone is looking for a game that recreates combat more 'realistically' (as realistic as you can get with orcs and fireballs), the Alliance is far from that.

He never said you could not say it. In fact he states that Alliance combat is exactly that... Innaccurate and Unrealistic. What I believe he is saying is that it is tough to complain about a scenerio "realistic and accurate combat" that does not seem to be intended in the first place. That is like going to a baseball game and complaining that they did not play football.

Yea, that's kind of what I was getting at. In any case I think we agree on this point. Alliance combat isn't realistic.

My VERY first encounter with NERO was at a fighter practice. I watched as a PC ran into a group of orcs, grabbed the item they needed and ran out again, all the while getting beat upon by them. But the PC knew he had the body and armor points to do it without any real worry of dropping. Although this is an extreme, it is a valid tactic within the Alliance ruleset and I have seen it more than once where a player's entire attitude changes based upon the first damage call they hear and simply wade into blows knowing full well that they can withstand the hits until they beat the other down. And, if by some miracle/trick they do get dropped, like others have said, a quick "Cure Light Wounds" spell, potion or elixir and they're all good (as in no fear of dying).

I have heard you bring up this specific example several times mark, but I just don't really see your point when you bring us such an extreme example and be frustrated with the system just because such an extreme example "can" come to pass. And for the record in all the games I've played I've never seem something so specific as this example, and personal I'd feel like a player who did that would be someone who is sort of taking advantage of the NPC's who are clearly scaled lower than them and just grab what they want anyways. You have to keep in mind that with many systems it is quite possible to abuse or strech the system to your likes.

Want to know the type of game I like to play in? Play a weekend game of Alliance where there is no Earth Magic - including no Earth Circles. Then you're approaching the flavor I enjoy.

I understand what your saying here, and such a game can definitely be fun. I've played the Alliance rules set without resurrection, so everyone is basically a "true mortal" and if they miss that 5 minute life spell window they are gone. Honestly I don't think it worked so well, because in a way it was harder for characters/players to "lose" a fight or battle, without plot having killed everyone, and that just kind of sucks for story lines that have been building for years... So I think you'd just really need to re-structure to a different sort of game to not have those "back on your feet" mechanics. I'd still say people still are somewhat mortal even in Alliance, and if the game is scaled to be scary enough, people resurrect, and you can only keep doing that so long...

 

[markusdark]

I have heard you bring up this specific example several times mark, but I just don't really see your point when you bring us such an extreme example and be frustrated with the system just because such an extreme example "can" come to pass. And for the record in all the games I've played I've never seem something so specific as this example, and personal I'd feel like a player who did that would be someone who is sort of taking advantage of the NPC's who are clearly scaled lower than them and just grab what they want anyways. You have to keep in mind that with many systems it is quite possible to abuse or strech the system to your likes.

Just for the record, I bring up this example because it best illustrates the effect of the mechanics and it was my very first exposure to NERO/Alliance. I could bring up numerous other examples of where a player's actions were quite 'unrealistic' based upon the current situation and mechanics of the game. This includes, but is not limited to:

-Player allowing himself to be eaten alive because he had a Vengance upon him
-Player going from a careful approach towards an enemy to simply walking into his blows when he hears the first damage call
-forgoing a rogue's chance for trap finding and removal simply by running down the hallway with someone keeping some cure light wounds ready for him.
-Committing suicide to rid oneself of a drain because the healer had a life spell memorized but not one that could fix the drain.
-Rushing a guy holding a knife to a little girl's throat because she can resist any killing blow and that means it will take him at least 4 seconds to outright kill her - besides if they fail, there's always a life spell, or the circle.
-Numerous 'bottled spirit' situations.

These are the ones that I've seen that stand out in my mind, and any player here could come up with a plethora of other situations that they've either seen or could create themselves. I seriously doubt I am the only one who have witnessed such acts. But, just so you're prepared, whenever the discussion about 'realistic combat' comes up here, I will always put forth my 'specific example' for illustration purposes.

 

[Wraith]

Yeah. The fact that there is no real reason to worry about having low body does make for some less than fun situations with traps. Mostly in the 'let me strip off anything I don't want shattered, then go kick that trap box and set it off' category.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

I still really don't understand the complaint. Its a fantasy game with magical healing. That is a HUGE premise and basis for the game. If you don't want to play a game with those mechanics embedded into the system this really is the wrong system for ya.

In the world of this game many of those tactics are honestly reasonable ways to deal with things because there is no reason for the "character" to believe otherwise. I mean if you knew that you had friends nearby who could bring you back from being dead and you knew that you had a magical ritual on yourself that would kill something if you let it kill you wouldn't it be reasonable to let that happen? Turns your friends life spell into an effective 250 or whatever unavoidable damage...

I mean if your saying that you just don't like fantasy worlds with magic like that I can dig that. But once again I'm kind of confused here, because it feels like your going to the baseball game and saying you don't like it because its football. That's all I'm saying.

 

[markusdark]

I mean if your saying that you just don't like fantasy worlds with magic like that I can dig that. But once again I'm kind of confused here, because it feels like your going to the baseball game and saying you don't like it because its football. That's all I'm saying.

Unfortunately, the only thing around these parts (as in within a 6 hour drive) is a baseball game. And some sport is better than no sport.

But the comments I have been making were started when the question was asked if there were systems that reward personal ability with very minimal changes due to advancing technology. Such systems (as in the more 'realistic' versions) do exist, Alliance isn't one of them. I will state it once again, I have never said that there was anything wrong with the Alliance system and the fact that it is still going after 15+ years is a good testament to that. I am just saying that personal combative skill is greatly diminished by the mechanics of the game.

 

[Wraith]

But the comments I have been making were started when the question was asked if there were systems that reward personal ability with very minimal changes due to advancing technology. Such systems (as in the more 'realistic' versions) do exist, Alliance isn't one of them. I will state it once again, I have never said that there was anything wrong with the Alliance system and the fact that it is still going after 15+ years is a good testament to that. I am just saying that personal combative skill is greatly diminished by the mechanics of the game.

And I'd agree that Alliance has a lot going for it. I mostly just brought it up (and sorry for the derail) to see what others thought on the matter. Most of the things that bother me are easily solved by us as players. Fighting a little slower, being mindful of our verbals, and (goddess forbid) actually roleplaying injury are all easy enough to do. They make one hell of a difference to immersion as well.

So, in short, here's what I think the fix is :

Roleplay, first and foremost. Take a bit, and do things not for system mechanics advantage, but because your character would do them. Do you, as a player, know that something swinging low damage can't kill you before you kill it? Sure! Does your character really want to get hurt just to take out a goblin faster?

 

[Dreamingfurther]

Indeed, I was talking with another friend about some of the stuff we've talked about here. And really one of the toughest issues is that while we "take" damage and such. We don't actually "feel" the pain and damage that our characters would. I'm sure it would be a whole different bag of worms if we could like have virtual pain creators for when we are taking damage... lol But that would be sort of disturbing on another level.

Anyways, I agree that putting RP first in the game/system makes everything better.

 

[Gwendara]

Absolutely. Roleplay makes the immersion that much better. It can even be used to explain some of the situations above. If you're approaching a monster cautiously, and then see how it swings its sword (damage calls) and realize it's below you, why not approach less cautiously? You're a skilled fighter, or at least argueably more so than your foe, and you see something swinging in an unskilled manner you're not going to take it as seriously. Especially if you're an arrogant character! However, I think far too often people don't actually roleplay the damage they take, they are characters playing with +/- numbers rather than a person being cut or bludgeoned. It's always a nice touch when people actually roleplay the injuries, and it's something I whole heartedly encourage more of on both sides PC and NPC.

 

[LordArtimus]

Absolutely. Roleplay makes the immersion that much better. It can even be used to explain some of the situations above. If you're approaching a monster cautiously, and then see how it swings its sword (damage calls) and realize it's below you, why not approach less cautiously? You're a skilled fighter, or at least argueably more so than your foe, and you see something swinging in an unskilled manner you're not going to take it as seriously. Especially if you're an arrogant character! However, I think far too often people don't actually roleplay the damage they take, they are characters playing with +/- numbers rather than a person being cut or bludgeoned. It's always a nice touch when people actually roleplay the injuries, and it's something I whole heartedly encourage more of on both sides PC and NPC.

 

[Wraith]

You could have at least posted a '+1' rather than just emptyquoting. :lol:

 

[Artos]

I'd like to RP damage more and would be happy to do so, but the problem is it often gets misconstrued as you actually being in pain or having a shot hurt, especially while in combat. It's something I'm going to aim to do more of in the future but I'll probably preface it early that I'm going to be doing it just to avoid having to repeatedly tell people it's RP and I'm fine.

 

[LordArtimus]

Freeaking quote screw up. I said it wouldn't be LARP without the actual Role playing in it. Otherwise it is just a over glorified Boffer combat. :evil:

 

[CrossRoads]

What about when someone Role plays getting eviscerated for 45 seconds? (reminded me of Pee Wee Herman at the end of the Buffy movie)

tab

 

[Wraith]

Freeaking quote screw up. I said it wouldn't be LARP without the actual Role playing in it. Otherwise it is just a over glorified Boffer combat. :evil:

Ah, okay. Didn't mean to give you too much of a hard time.

What about when someone Role plays getting eviscerated for 45 seconds? (reminded me of Pee Wee Herman at the end of the Buffy movie)

It'd be hilarious. But RP can't override game mechanic effects, and Eviscerate's effect drops the target to -1 body. The proper reaction to being at -1 body is to fall to the ground, so that's what has to happen. Anything beyond that in the way of a cry of pain or dramatic fall is (at least in my opinion) fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with the timely completion of the required falling dead bit. :mrgreen:

 

[Talen]

Honestly, it's a few of those neat-o variant rules that I've seen wandering around various Alliance-type games that make a world of difference.

One was the nastier and IMHO very effective "wounded" rule. Every time you dropped below 0 body points, you were weakened- your maximum body for the tag cycle (8 hours, basically) dropped by one. If you were at 1 body point maximum and were dropped again, you were crippled- and could only be healed to zero body. If you were again dropped below zero, you were dying- and could not be healed by a Life spell, though they had a spell and a "Surgery" skill that would both freeze a death count. Hits that exceeded your current maximum in one shot -doubled- this rate of body loss- so tossing a newbie into a trap field as a cheap disarming tool was a very good way to -murder- them instead, and yo-yo healing people wasn't a wise way to keep them fighting save for a desperation move. (Edit: Ressurecting restored you to your full original body total, though.)

 

[Wraith]

Oo. Now that is a mechanic I like!

 

[Gwendara]

Freeaking quote screw up. I said it wouldn't be LARP without the actual Role playing in it. Otherwise it is just a over glorified Boffer combat. :evil:

Understood, but I wouldn't have mentioned it if it didn't seem like an issue at times. I definitely see the problem with acting hurt IG and people thinking you got hurt OOG. Fine balance there I think.

 

[LordArtimus]

What about when someone Role plays getting eviscerated for 45 seconds? (reminded me of Pee Wee Herman at the end of the Buffy movie)

tab

hehe.. That would be over acting liek Jeremy iron in teh Dungeons and dragons movie,. :twisted: