Upcoming Removal of Eviscerating Blow and Spirit Temper Options for Affected Players

[Saephis]

I feel like there are a few reasons someone may not say anything on a topic:

1. You don't feel strongly about a subject
2. You feel others are saying something better than you are
3. You feel others won't listen

I have strong feelings of advocacy, and have used my voice for the last couple of those three reasons more frequently than not, even when a topic doesn't impact me.

I've tried to emphasize as often as felt appropriate to not miss my original point that I don't see an issue with adding Taunt, taking mechanics from MMOs is fine as long as its well executed. I'm curious how it will interact with other Greater Commands, but that's still pending.

To your example, however, a level ~7 fighter, also can see all ~1000 points of damage get wasted by a level 1 or 2 spell, either Disarm or Weapon Shield (RIP Magic Armor), both available at lower level, teaching that fighter's player to use experience into more repeatable skills instead.

 

[Droth]

I have seen the opposite of the 90% agree with the change as a fighter what I have seen is 90% disagree with this change, but don’t see a point to speak out against it. Unfortunately and this is just the voice of a player that others have talked to. They feel as though it doesn’t matter and that things are gonna change whether they want them to or not. Again I’m not saying that I speak for the whole fighter base of alliance and I’m not saying that everyone is horrible I’m not and I don’t want it to come across as that. However the numbers of people that I’m talking to that completely want to turn their character now from a fighter is enough for me as a long term fighter to say something and I get it. Out of 5 EB I maybe would have 1 go through. So when one does hit and it does take out the big guy or saves your buddy in a smaller fight that’s a good feeling that’s a feeling that makes me want to come back to larp. And that’s what I’m always looking for I fell in love with this game from moments like that and its rule changes like this that I feel like are killing those moments for people. Also how many slays has everyone in here wasted it can be blocked by a hard sneeze so I do think this weakened fighters even more. I do think that a tank build for a fighter can still be good but now you are gonna need someone else out there to help with damage. My setup was not built as a damage taking fighter for example I built around dealing damage, so I get it, as a lower level fighter building on the same path as I was this absolutely hurt them. I don’t think that anyone intentionally set out to hurt anyone I feel this is one of the best communities around and I love being a part of it, but I do know that I have talked to and been a part of a number of conversations that this is hurting and upsetting more people than everyone’s thinking. Sorry for the book guys.

 

[Ian J]

On a side note not EB related, I appreciate everyone being open and discussing this as well as higher up national reps taking the time to address this with us. Makes me feel good about the community as a whole that we aren’t told just to shut up and sit down lol

 

[tarsus]

I do think tone via text is a problem, and I apologize if my tone was seen as dismissive. I was attempting to counterpoint something said previously (that there was no positive feelings from the player base) that was false.

The nature of forums means that we are always hearing only from the minority. We have tons of players here and are really only hearing from a dozen or two (known colloquially as the vocal minority). If you don't feel strongly about a subject, you say nothing, it's the nature of public discourse.

I do hope those who have already made up their minds that there is no positive from this can take a step back and give the bigger picture a look, but understand that not everyone can or will.

I do strongly believe that the number on a single skill can and does effect game balance as a whole, especially when compared to other burst damage sources. A level ~7 fighter can have access to 1000 points of burst damage with 2 EBs (1 + riposte, and they still have use of the other 60 build worth of skills), which is more than 4 full columns of damage spells from a celestial/damage caster. This does effect game balance and starting.

Eh, a 7 Rogue can mechanically avoid 4 EBs by the time the fighter can do 2. Weapon and poison delivered attacks are just too easy to avoid. I could laugh off ten eviscerates in a row and still be comfortable to take risks.

The power of EB wasn't necessarily that it does 500 body, but it forces an NPC or even PC to have to decide to save their defenses for it or avoid the immediate lesser medium sized attacks such as slays or assassinates and risk the 500 body later.

 

[Xanian]

I think bringing the availability of defenses in when we are talking about the balance of burst damage skills is not really relevant.

To your point, you said the mere threat of the ability changes how some NPCs fought. That leads more to the point that the ability was not in line with other burst damage skills in the game. No other burst damage skill in the game elicits that behavior.

 

[Saephis]

I think that it depends. The last direction that I'm aware of regarding direction was "bring down complexity and overall damage" around 2.0. Prior to that, everything was just iterating further from the "squinting at D&D and make it a LARP" from the original NERO -> NERO Alliance -> Alliance" iterating.

I've heard pseudo justifications of consistent damage on Melee classes to Utility on Casters with burst existing on each, which eroded somewhat with wands and the like. Each type of class had defenses, but casters had 'dumb' defenses at higher availability via casting while melee had 'smart' on demand -- thus went the balance discussion.

When pieces of the balance go away, the balance .. unbalances, I guess. If burst damage on one side of the equation goes up, then what? Does mitigation go up? Does static damage go up? Changing one piece of the equation doesn't work in the game ecosystem if a semblance of balance is to be maintained.

If the intention for Fighters is to become the 'tank' archetype, they need something more (we're discussing part of that elsewhere), but the class as a whole needs an overhaul then, because its a very confused bird that's trying to swim when it should fly, if so. If the intent is to have Scouts fill the 'Skirmish' type role, then that needs to be more obvious beyond "Well you're a hybrid".

Trying to bolt on update after update without a ground-up overhaul doesn't work after approaching 40 years as a system -- Just ask Windows 3.1. But that requires intentional game design not "I don't like this one thing".

I think that, if we roll back to the intentions of 2.0 -- simplification and damage reduction, overall it failed, sort of. Melee became drastically more complicated with point buying, but with far more skills for the better. Damage reduction has varied drastically by chapter, so beyond melee damage coming down via cost increases and caster damage becoming more available, this one is more difficult to measure.

I wasn't able to see what the intention of 2.1 was, and I'm still catching up with what changes there were with it, so I'm admittedly in the dark on some of that, but what I've read so far I'm not on first reading overly thrilled. But we'll see as I read on through it. Unfortunately "change logs" have never been a strength of version updates, so this is an ongoing process.

 

[tarsus]

How can it not be relevant when the burst is rendered useless by a character of the same level. Theoretical burst isn't quite as meaningful as realistic burst, which in most cases with eviscerate, is zero until the very end of a BBEG fight at which point most people on both sides just want the encounter to end anyway. In terms of realistic burst, no one can even compare to a spell sword's arcane strikes. Tinker's might be next with elemental strike 50s, but not positive on that. Plus, it's expensive, lol.

Defenses are just going to go to the next highest damage dealing ability and in 5 years you'll get people complaining about them too. However, when before I was able to get in a 200 assassinate every now and then because an NPC was saving their defenses for eviscerate, now I'll be lucky to get one in unless every defense is exhausted because it's the biggest hit I can dish out.

 

[Droth]

I think bringing the availability of defenses in when we are talking about the balance of burst damage skills is not really relevant.

To your point, you said the mere threat of the ability changes how some NPCs fought. That leads more to the point that the ability was not in line with other burst damage skills in the game. No other burst damage skill in the game elicits that behavior.

I feel like doom is just as scary if not more it requires life to be brought back up EB just drops you.

 

[Saephis]

Defenses are just going to go to the next highest damage dealing ability and in 5 years you'll get people complaining about them too. However, when before I was able to get in a 200 assassinate every now and then because an NPC was saving their defenses for eviscerate, now I'll be lucky to get one in unless every defense is exhausted because it's the biggest hit I can dish out.

That was a change we saw when Riposte changed to Riposting Blow and Eviscerate to Eviscerating Blow. Everyone saved their Ripostes for Eviscerate, and a Parry for the inevitable Riposted Riposte. After Riposte went away, it very much became a guessing game of "is it coming back? Is this a Riposting Blow 500? How many will happen?"

I feel like doom is just as scary if not more it requires life to be brought back up EB just drops you.

I feel like the shift in late-game from Fighter to Scout also highlighted the use of Eviscerating Blow + Doom Blow to throw 500 Doom to compensate for whatever Armor existed.

 

[Xanian]

When looking to balance burst damage specifically (which is the point of this change), looking at status attacks is largely broadening the scope.

We do have a potential problem in the system when it comes to those (statuses/save or die effects), but trying to bring that into this discussion just muddies the waters and doesn't help with the issue at hand.

Likewise, looking at what defenses players can get when attempting to balance numbers on burst damage is unhelpful. The game isn't balanced around a level X rogue fighting 1v1 against a level X fighter, and it shouldn't be. But we can look at what effects each of those have in the overall game we are balancing for.

 

[Droth]

I feel like one of the biggest things is we keep overhauling rules instead of making simple changes. Honestly 2.0 was ok but I feel like really 1.3 only need adjusting. Then 2.1, so many people really don’t have an understanding of the rules anymore.

 

[Ian J]

I’m all for change and improvement. Taunt seems, by the wording, lackluster at best. Granted, EB by the wording seemed great but in practicality it wasn’t. The line “never in a manner that will cause direct harm to the target” makes it impossible to bring a target forward from back ranks and into a kill box. They can still run away or avoid you while attacking or targeting from range with whatever they like. When I was told of it, I thought it would be cool to pull squishies out front and into a kill box to get wrecked, but that’s not the case.

I’ll just respec thanks. Just need the ability to do so…. Hopefully in a timely manner lol

 

[tarsus]

I feel like doom is just as scary if not more it requires life to be brought back up EB just drops you.

Now that doom blow does not have a numerical value, I'm not that scared of it. Eviscerate was almost always accompanied by a raging strike (or npc equivalent) in my experience, so it was much scarier for me.

 

[Mobius]

But we'll see as I read on through it. Unfortunately "change logs" have never been a strength of version updates, so this is an ongoing process.

Side-question: ¿what do you think would be a better way to implement or handle Change Logs in the ARB?

 

[Saephis]

Side-question: ¿what do you think would be a better way to implement or handle Change Logs in the ARB?

Not to sound glib, but have them would be best considering the breadth of rules being updated in some of these. It would be a big doc, sure, separate from the actual ARB, but having a line-by-line summary. Some folks during a break in 1. .. ... 7? .. 8? never came back to 2.0 because they just didn't want to try to figure out the changes.

For this example:

Eviscerating Blow has been removed and replaced with Taunting Blow.

 

[Francis]

I didnt really know what to think about this EB stuff. Kind of been wondering why they took out the fighter's capstone ability away. it may have well been the weakest in the game and i just keep seeing that its too much burst damage in a extremely bursty game? I mean its not gonna bother me whither you took it out or not. What im not happy about is the skill that we just received and how it may be the worst skill in this system and alot of people loved eviserating blow and as taunt is cool if you actually worded right it shouldnt have been a replacement for EB? why didnt you just make it an instant death skill like every other class has or instant bleed out? not every fighter wants to be the tank. but a solo tank skill is now our capstone ability and the wording makes it almost useless? honestly in my opinion everyone that has EB should have automatically gotten a spirit forge with such a drastic change.

 

[Mobius]

Not to sound glib, but have them would be best considering the breadth of rules being updated in some of these. It would be a big doc, sure, separate from the actual ARB, but having a line-by-line summary. Some folks during a break in 1. .. ... 7? .. 8? never came back to 2.0 because they just didn't want to try to figure out the changes.

For this example:

Eviscerating Blow has been removed and replaced with Taunting Blow.

2.1.2 has a change log at the back, ¿did you find it useful? If not, ¿how would you prefer it for the upcoming version?

 

[Saephis]

2.1.2 has a change log at the back, ¿did you find it useful? If not, ¿how would you prefer it for the upcoming version?

I had not found it yet. Let me get back to you.