Topic for discussion: Nobility Agreement and PvP Attitudes

[Willem Rivet]

Hello everyone! I'd like to bring up a potentially divisive topic in the most neutral way possible. My intent is to understand what is actually expected of an IG noble, as it is entirely possible that my character will be slated to lead the Merchant's Guild. As a disclaimer, I don't have anything against anyone OOG in the Chicago chapter. My initial conversation refers to IG attitudes between characters.

PvP, or Player vs Player, gets a bad reputation among Larpers. It has been used to justify toxic environments, Amnesia roll characters, and generally bring anxiety into otherwise harmonious situations. I'm not talking about PvP actions, but rather attitudes. As a noble, you are expected to bring harmony to any situation, but that might not be what that situation needs to be addressed.

For example, my character despises Enan Bluewater. Bad first, second, third impression, etc. Joseph actively acts against Enan quite a bit, even if it's a token resistance. In order to continue this note of dissonance, Joseph as written cannot accept a nobility position. But why?

Enan obviously gets away with a level of dissonance and PC Villianry. Where is the line, and how can I use that knowledge to find my own line that helps the game?

Obviously, I want conflict, and numbers-wise I'm probably going to lose that conflict. Help me to choose a path to make the game fun, and allows me to tell interesting stories.

-JT Engstrom, player of Joseph Smith

 

[AvacynIronRose]

JT-

I love you right now!
You are the real
MVP!

Edit- Just to add to this discussion if players get excited to travel to other chapters because certain nobles are not playing there is also a sign something is not being met in the nobility agreement in my opinion.

Gonna watch this thread to see what happens.

Annette

 

[Nikolai Ravania]

These are all good questions. I think the line as far as what violates said agreement and what crosses a line should be clearly defined. Just because one character actively dislikes another does not always except them from being noble. Many nobles have rivals and enemies, but where do such interactions cross a line into giving the game a bad reputation and therefore violate said agreement.

Nate
Player of Nikkolai

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gandian Ravenscroft]

I play a noble - silly as he may be - and I've got a reasonably strong opinion on how PC nobles should play. That said, I can't really elaborate at the moment. However, I certainly will elaborate once I get home from work, at which point you can get my personal perspective on the subject and how it pertains to how I play my noble and interact with other characters and players. Stay tuned!

 

[Darkcrescent]

I wanted to wait until I got home to type this but as the person who proposed, rewrote and adapted(with permission from Seth from Seatle) this agreement while I was HoP I felt I should clarify.

The true essence of the Nobility Agreement is "dont be a dink". While there is nothing wrong with your PC not liking another PC when it boils down to it stop and ask yourself, "is this fun for X player Oog?" If the answer is no, then re-evaluate.

If you are a PC noble you are the person everyone knows, you are front and center of the chapter IG. Your attitude and mentality greatly impact the game. Nobility is a trust agreement between you and plot. Thats the core of it.

Encourage plotlines, guide newer players to get their fingers into a plot and be a mentor, thats what it is about. Yes, your IG character may not be Goody McTwoshoes on some levels but you need to be approachable IG and OOG to better the chapter.

Again, the above reflects my original intent of this agreement at a time when I was HoP in this chapter and also a noble in SoMN. I hope this clarified somethings.

Ryan

 

[Gandian Ravenscroft]

Well, I'm home now, so here's a glimpse into my mindset when I play Lord Silp, the flopsiest noble in all of Wayside, and Ryan really hit it right on the head:

Fundamentally, Silp has always been built as a character designed to make other players have fun, and this has been amplified even more now that he was given a title. Sure, Silp's also built to be a bizarrely effective backthwacker, but first and foremost, I play this character so to help enhance other players' experience at the event, which in turn makes me have a lot of fun. The following are all things I make conscious efforts to do during events I attend:

- I dig around for plotlines and information so that I can give those plotlines and information to other players rather than keeping it to myself.
- I make a point to chat with characters that are less in-the-know and help get them up to speed on what's going on, because players that feel knowledgeable have more fun.
- I hang around with folks that aren't only my closest friends at the chapter.
- If someone does something cool, I make sure to tell them how cool it was.
- If someone does something for me, I make sure to sincerely thank them for their assistance, even if it was really minor.
- I strive to make myself approachable at any time if someone wants to talk to me, and if I do have to turn someone away from a chat for whatever reason, I make sure to genuinely promise to find them for that chat once I'm available.
- If I get angry out-of-game for whatever reason, I will pull myself aside to calm down a bit (often with a friend to help alleviate my temper) rather than allowing my mood to bleed into other players.
- If a player does interact with my bad mood, I make sure to find them once I've calmed down and apologize for the incident.
- And more, but I feel like finishing this post rather than dragging it out too much.

I think a critical thing for noble players to keep in mind is this: Whenever you're doing something with another player, is what you're doing making the other player have a better event? If the answer is no, rethink how you go about doing whatever you're doing. If you ever find yourself pondering a scheme of how you can screw over a player, think instead about how you can spend that time making a different player's game better. You might not like some other folks and you might disagree with them, but even if you're opposed to them, you always need to keep the bottom line in mind: Players are there to have fun. Be someone that makes events fun for everyone, not just fun for yourself or your closest friends. You and your in-game enemy should be able to meet up after the event and go "Man, the conflict between us this event was so cool and tense!" rather than having the two of you just avoiding eye contact and grumbling about the other as you drive home.

Of course, if anyone has any particular thoughts as to how I can better my methods for enhancing our friendly chapter culture, please reach out to me and let me know! I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks y'all,
Alexander

 

[Kitaruen]

I have talked to JT in detail to help work through his questions. I invite anyone who wants to have a more in depth conversation about the topic to reach out to me. I have a few thoughts I want to share and then I will reopen the thread and leave it open for a couple days for discussion. The moderators closed this thread earlier in the day as it was reported several times, when they contacted me I said go ahead and leave it shut till a staff member can respond.

The nobility agreement is not a perfect document but it was put in play to give us a bar to point too IF a noble required censure and for us to point at IF someone asked what does becoming a noble require/mean. It is meant as a guide and perhaps needs to be rewritten for clarity but that is not the topic at hand in my opinion. BUT when it was instituted we had literally nothing to reference and it was certainly better then that. I am quite glad Ryan helped me institute it and evolve the way game ran. --Ryan thanks for your 5 years as HOP just incase I have not said that publicly before.

Let it be said I agree whole heartedly with Alexander's post. In the end the real point at the heart of the nobility agreement is to me: Are you an ambassador of the game? That means OOG and IG do you make the Alliance better for everyone around you. No one is perfect nor is anyone expected to live up to it at every moment. BUT OOG and IG do you make choices and behave in such a way that benefits the game more than not is really the question.

You are welcome to not like a CHARACTER IG and even bad mouth them in character or to some degree cause minor troubles for them as long as you do not cross the line to where you are actively seeking to harm their good time. Also you should keep it to IG....there is a huge difference in saying I hate Kitaruen or Kitaruen is a lying SOB and saying I hate Rob or Rob is a lying SOB. Gossip and OOG bad mouthing is never ok!

Rob
(my name is in my signature so guess signing this is overkill)

 

[Lurin]

I think PC conflicts are often misunderstood as folks don't see things that happen outside of their perspective. For example there have been a number of times, as the Player of said (apparently evil villain?) character where my actions where modified explicitly to allow folks a fairer chance to act against him, or to make a conflict more fun/interesting. This often is the source of my perceived bad behavior by some players as Enan often has to take the role of 'The Man/The System' and let's be honest, your average PC prefers to be the misunderstood, yet good hearted hero who works against the system. This obviously clashes with the more Feudal system the game revolves around and that can cause interesting conflict between PCs.

As to this line

For example, my character despises Enan Bluewater. Bad first, second, third impression, etc. Joseph actively acts against Enan quite a bit, even if it's a token resistance. In order to continue this note of dissonance, Joseph as written cannot accept a nobility position. But why?

I highly challenge it, there are a number of PCs that act against Enan often and actively. Hey I get it, I intentionally portray him as a devout follower of a system that has some MAJOR flaws. Part of what my nobility agreement ensures is that I always play fair. Cyn down on the battle field? I'm not going to circle her and steal her stuff. Joesph refuses to sell him something or spikes the price? I'm not going to DFM the circle and take his stuff. Someone who spoke out against him dead on the edge of the field? I'm not going to roll them into the bushes. What might happen is Joesph might feel pressure from some quarters as Enan tries to force a cease-fire over hostilities. Merchants guild supplies are held in customs in the Sandorian mountains perhaps. The idea being is anything Enan does against any other character should lead to interactions and potentially interesting plot. The most recent interaction with Cyn is a great example instead of waiting for and meeting Nikolai in a dark alley, Enan first tried to talk to Cyn to work out a deal for her to come up with a punishment as his Lady (perhaps take on X dangerous quest for the Guardians of the light), when talks where clearly not going well Enan instead involved the NPC marshals to pass judgement or work out a solution that could maintain the in game Justice structure while still allowing the players to have a good time.

It is important to remember different players have different goals/desires/and preferred view points of the in game world and these don't always line up. One of the responsibilities of Nobles is to maintain the plot supported structure of the world and that definitely leads to conflict at times. When it does it's important to keep the conflict in a fashion where the other side has options for fighting backing and not let that conflict spill out of game, but it's okay for folks to lose sometimes even if that's not the most (immediate) fun for them. It's also important to involve the local plot staff to allow them to fashion the event into something that can turn into something engaging.

 

[AvacynIronRose]

I would ask my character's situation not be used as an example because I disagree it was a good example and the facts are not properly represented.

Thank you.

Annette

 

[Mobius]

JT - I say you go for it. Conflict is the driving force of every plot line in every story ever: unconflicted folk stay home for Elevensies and nobody talks about them. If Joseph has a beef with Enan, what better way to create provocative encounters, ripples, and great twist and turns than pursuing rank. Just make sure you, JT, realize the conflict serves the purpose of creating a greater story and is not a goal in itself.

In terms of your question, "Where is the line, and how can I use that knowledge to find my own line that helps the game?" that's where you need to start thinking like Plot. Choosing to become a PC Noble in this chapter requires you become a PC/Plot hybrid: you have the autonomy of a PC; but you have a responsibility to engage and elevate the Game Plot like an NPC. If a PC wants to kak another PC, it's GasGasGasCircleAmnesiaKB home in time for dinner. But, that's not a very compelling story. And as a PC, you would look askance at a plot team who did that on a regular basis. On the other hand, if a good Plot NPC wanted to overcome a PC, they'd build plans, integrate other NPCs and PCs, forge an escalating story-line over a series of games and, in conjunction with the rest of Plot and a number of complicit PCs, tell an integrated tale of power and downfall. As a PC Noble, you've got to lean toward those "story-based" solutions. You don't lose your decision power as a PC, but your goals have broadened to also include telling the best tale for the most people.

Now, that may sound daunting but, in addition to the responsibility to elevate the game as a PC Noble, you're also given an entire Plot team and every other PC Noble as support. As soon as you don that sash, you've gained a set of allies all focused on the same goal: make a fun and compelling game. If you're concerned about how Joseph and Enan will stand in conflict and whether it'll impede the game, approach Dave and Rob and say, "Hey, we've got a happy little war cookin' here. I don't want to give away my secrets, 'cuz that's no fun (and I'm still a PC), but let's set some ground-rules to ensure we get a lot of people involved and neither of us gets carried away". It's like setting up the rules of a tournament: there's still a test of will and cunning, but everyone's on the same page and it's more likely to result in a larger number of people having fun. Y'all can even check in now and again to ensure everything is rolling kosher and the war is fun and inclusive. The rest of the PC Nobility is in the same position, conferring with them early and often will make everyone's life better.

Conflict is not bad, in and of itself, when it's used as a dynamo to build better stories and grow characters. In the end, I think you've already got a good bead on the line as you've A) already come to grips with the possibility of defeat and B) you're already focused on making a good story, the hallmark of a conscientious gamer and good player. Go for it, man. ¡It'll be a lark!

 

[jdackow]

The Noble system in and out of Game should be based on the idea of service. So I always tried to ask this question to myself "Is this serving the people I represent both in and out of the game."

Hello everyone! I'd like to bring up a potentially divisive topic in the most neutral way possible. My intent is to understand what is actually expected of an IG noble, as it is entirely possible that my character will be slated to lead the Merchant's Guild. As a disclaimer, I don't have anything against anyone OOG in the Chicago chapter. My initial conversation refers to IG attitudes between characters.

For example, my character despises Enan Bluewater. Bad first, second, third impression, etc. Joseph actively acts against Enan quite a bit, even if it's a token resistance. In order to continue this note of dissonance, Joseph as written cannot accept a nobility position. But why?

-JT Engstrom, player of Joseph Smith

I think one question here is if your PC acting against another PC individual or are you also looking to have the Merchant Guild act against another PC. And is it because of a valid in game reason? and it the response reasonable. if you not sure ask plot.

Unlike some of the other Nobly titles the Merchant Guild is a little different. It is set up as a lose network of PC crafters with some highlevel oversight and resource sharing. If i try to the Guild to harm a PC that would definitely be an issue and the PC of the guild should be calling me out on it. But if Aramis has valid in game reason to distrust someone it don't think it should make a difference if it is a NPC or PC. However, i should still act polite and civil as is in the CODE.

Let say another group of PC want to form a Merchant guild. I would say that there would be some in character Drama there and that would not be in violation of this CODE. however burnign here wearhouse done in game would be.

For a In game example Aramis reported to a High Magistrate his concerns that Lord Bluewater would not halt in his attacks on the Northlunds and leading the Kingdom in to a war after King O'Dell had offered a peace till Spring. Aramis addressed this in game with Lord Bluewater first and then the High Magistrate. I do not think any of us would see this as a violation of the Code but it was not bring harmony. but per the noble structure i address the concern with a higher noble. in this case Aramis was trying to stop a war before it started. who know the King would use that info and started the war himself.

In another vain Aramis has active plotted to Kill Lady FallingStar because of a enslavement. This would not bring harmony but was still within the Plot and with in reason of the situation.

I would say the biggest stretch the CODE is asking the PC noble to do is to try and work toward reconciliation and not over escalate the situation where this conflict gets is the way of the real story the plot team is trying to have you help tell. but in some way i as this it a rule for all PCs

Jon D.

 

[Joda]

I'm enjoying the discussion here, both about the responsibility that comes IG and OOG for nobility, and conflict between characters. I realised rather early on that though I, Jared, am interested in perusing nobility, Thorn would be a horrible ambassador of the game.

In addition, I know Thorn has and will continue to have conflict, as it's built into his foundation. But we are still here to have fun and if conflict fueled by my character is fun for me, but is detracting from the game for others, I'm doing it wrong. As a player I like seeing a bit of IG conflict, but anything far-reaching should involve the staff, to make sure it doesn't detract from others.