Shatter

Draven said:
I don't have an issue with the 62 points of damage portion. It's a niche effect, meaning that it'll be extremely effective in some situations, and nearly useless in others.

Putting a new character out of a bunch of gold right off the bat for a 3rd level spell does seem a bit harsh, but I think it's also necessary to make Blacksmithing more viable as a production skill.
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62 points is an outlier I agree, but given the new layering rules and increased armor values I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of players are going to be at their class maximum which means that shatter will do a minimum of 15 points of damage, 25-35 points against fighter types, and in some niche circumstances up to 62 points. Combined with the fact that if your armor is not rendered you cannot "heal" that amount back until you visit a blacksmith and buy a new suit of armor, it still seems far too powerful for a 3rd level spell.
 

Sorry, I had to do it.

From my opinion, Shatter is potent. I like it being potent. It will absolutely be devastating to new characters, but it will only come from either PvP or PvE sources. Personally, I think Shatter should also make Indestructible items as unusable for 3 seconds (and a targeted Dispel should render a Magic Item's charges as unusable for 10 minutes in my opinion).

From a PvE source, my response is: "Trust your plot teams". Plot should be telling a story while making the game fun; if the game isn't fun they aren't going to retain players, so it is in their best interest to moderate unfun impacts. A Shatter or two could be fun, a bunch of Shatters would be unfun. Stuff like that.

From a PvP source, characters have several avenues to pursue to get justice. They can report the crime, work with other established characters for support, turn PvP in return, or Plot can help the new character with non-combat quests to replace equipment (or give coin to pay for equipment). Given the vastly reduced defenses in the world I suspect it will be significantly easier to retaliate, especially if you have a friend who is a trapsmith.
 
Simply because NPCs use claws more often than the PCs, and rarely wear armor, I suspect Shatter is more likely to remain primarily an NPC skill used most often on lower level PCs. That has been the case. What's different is that with the magic item attenuation and armor enhancements Shatter looks like it will pack way more of a punch, but most likely on the group which already has a glass jaw.
 
Sorry, I would just like to add that this would only be a problem if NPC camp isn't being mindful of how many Shatters it just sent out on a particular encounter and isn't instructing it's NPC to make sure they spread the love to people who aren't necessarily going to take the effect. That's the tricky part. NPC want to feel useful, just like PCs. So if they know level 5 fighter is likely to take the Shatter over level 25 whatever, they are likely to be tempted to gun for the character they know is vulnerable.
 
Now this is a YMMV, but I know our plot teams in Seattle and Oregon, don't typically throw out shatter's at lower level characters. We know they don't have the means to recoup the loss. We also have the "don't be a ****" rule. We want players to have fun.

That being said, we also don't throw them out on higher level players because they all have magic weapons/armor. I feel that giving shatter an actual use on everyone is great. As it stands, its a useless spell that eats up a 3rd level slot. Plot teams can have a new tool. I feel that just depleting magic armor to 0 to need a repair isn't a bad thing. So you have to work as a team. Isn't that one of the goals of 2.0?
 
When I NPC, and I doublehook every chance I get, if I have a powerful ability or spell I frequently reverse meta game the hell out of it and dirt one first on purpose. This lets then know what you're capable of and potentially makes them rethink their tactics. I have seen this done with things like Spellstrike Destroy Magic, for instance (a little extreme but you see my point).

Shatter was buffed. That's okay. I think it will be a fun mechanic and this is coming from someone who plans on having a 60 point set when 2.0 hits.
 
With the improvements to Shatter such that it reduces ANY armor to 0 points I suspect it will be used more (more than currently) on NPCs to take down Natural Armor and destroy NPC Monster Quality Armor (last I played in Seattle/Oregon there were a fair number of Armor phys reps being used), in addition to NPC Arcane Armor. It could possibly be a much more effective spell for damage casters than a 3rd level evocation spell.

Edit to add: Disarm the weapon, Shatter the armor, then cackle in glee as you chase (or Pin) the Orc with your dagger.
 
Deadlands of Old said:
Sorry, I would just like to add that this would only be a problem if NPC camp isn't being mindful of how many Shatters it just sent out on a particular encounter and isn't instructing it's NPC to make sure they spread the love to people who aren't necessarily going to take the effect. That's the tricky part. NPC want to feel useful, just like PCs. So if they know level 5 fighter is likely to take the Shatter over level 25 whatever, they are likely to be tempted to gun for the character they know is vulnerable.
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Which is why Shatter taking any armor on the target down to zero is such a good thing in my opinion. I would have liked it to operate differently, but do like where it is now.
 
I have to admit, my perception of Shatter has long been that it is a 3rd level death spell against low level characters and a spell shield breaker against high level characters (that is actually worse than Disarm at that point).

My oft suggested solution is that Shatter should simply make the item unusable until it can be repaired by a Blacksmith (no PP cost, just one minute like refitting armor). Destroy, a 7th (6th? I've lost track) level spell would still permanently disable the item, as is appropriate with its level.

Of course, that is just theorycrafting. Assuming nothing changes in the rules, I just think that Shatter should be treated very delicately by plot teams because it has such potential to make a weekend completely no fun for certain unlucky players.

-MS
 
I am ok with the new shatter but I am also ok with the old shatter. I play and more control style C- caster and normally shatter weapon and shields of NPCs. I like the idea of shattering the Big bad’s Armor based on the new rule and letting everyone else go to town on them. At our last game I was pick out the Dwarf Crossbowmen throwing 13 damage and shattering the bow effectively taking them out as they did not have melee weapons. While I am not allows able to use it, I normal memorized one or two and have a good number of scrolls ready. I am also the kind of guy that carry a short or long sword on me even without buying OHE as I have given it to another player that got had there weapon Shattered. My only concern is NPC not knowing their armor value if hit with a shatter. I have NPC a handful of time and based on the cards I played I was only given a Body number. I would just advise to have it clear if the monster has an armor natural, Arcane or otherwise in the database rewrite.
 
jdackow said:
My only concern is NPC not knowing their armor value if hit with a shatter. I have NPC a handful of time and based on the cards I played I was only given a Body number. I would just advise to have it clear if the monster has an armor natural, Arcane or otherwise in the database rewrite.
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I don't know what game you play in or what cards your plot team are providing you with, so I can only speak about the official monster database. The cards that are produced by the official database have a very clear, separate box that indicates armor value. Most monsters don't have armor and most humanoid NPCs don't wear armor (because it takes too much time for the NPC to put on the armor in NPC camp and most NPC camps don't have a lot of armor phys reps lying around due to expense), but there are exceptions. And, at least in the monster database, those exceptions are clearly spelled out.

In short, I don't think anything will change for the worse in that regard in the future.

-MS
 
jdackow said:
My only concern is NPC not knowing their armor value if hit with a shatter. I have NPC a handful of time and based on the cards I played I was only given a Body number. I would just advise to have it clear if the monster has an armor natural, Arcane or otherwise in the database rewrite.
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As mentioned above, normally the verbal cues will show if something has armor. One of the things the old Chic owner/HoP really burned into his NPCs was don't stat something with armor if it's not wearing a piece of armor. This way it gives PCs the visual that it can be destroyed. Anything not wearing armor will just have body, but that's likely a creature or non-sentient race. Though that visual wouldn't apply to someone with AA, but that's only a named LT or BBG at best.

I play in a chapter where Shatter/Destroy is prepped by nearly every caster based on the primary enemies we fight having "nodes" that need to be destroyed that way. Otherwise, it's used moreso on weapons/shields. I haven't honestly seen it used on armor from a PC standpoint but I know I'd use it more based on .8's rules.
 
I think I was always a monster with natural weapon so they should most likely only have body as well. But with AA and natural armor in .8 being more of an option I definitely see myself using shatter on more creatures if told they have something that sound like natural armor like bullets and insects or AA like knight or an PC race NPC.
Not that I would attack a knight of the realm. Lol. I just see it being used more for PvE then PvP in my chapter.
 
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