Page rules

[Valvatein]

Could someone please supply me with the page rules?

I have come upon a situation that I dont know how to handle

I became a page for medical reasons, I do not through packets have any weapons or even damage spells that I cast. I have never been aproache due to my seizure and tremor problems. Wich can be set off with noise lights sudden schock etc.

I was asked if I had read the page rules when I was attached by a spider at a gameday. The only page statement was about a killing blow in the book on page 162. I have seen no other rules. I also had a yellow headband 2" wide when I asked alliance if my horns could be worn on the headband I was told it had to be 2" wide and yellow. it is.

I could not find a section on page rules but was asked if I had read the rules. To this pont no rules have been given to me.

I felt I was out of the battle area by more than 10' when the spider got near I figured it would pass me, it did not and it set out 2 hits before I was able to flee the area. in the past I have always been allowed to leave an area before getting put in a battle situation.

that seams to have changed and I would like to get a copy of the rules so I can decide if this is a safe situation for me.

Could someone please help me with this situation.

 

[Valvatein]

I did go to the site and read the rules avalible there.
there are is no mention of medical page status or a disabled player status.

I am not a page for anyother reason than I cannot physicly participate in combat.
A battle can cause seizures tremors and convulsions. This has been stated to past staff of Seattle Nero. I didnt think things had changed.


Please check into this or have a meeting on this.
IF there is not a medical exception or I am not allowed out of what soemone sees as the combat feild, then I will no longer be able to play.

 

[Polare]

I have an updated version of the Page rules which Cymryc and I have agreed on for both Seattle and Oregon which I will be sending to Dave shortly to put up on the website to replace the existing rules (they're very similar).

There's nothing separate about a person who is paging for medical reasons compared to a person who is paging for age reasons - simply use the non-packet page status.

I will talk to Dave (and Cymryc for Oregon) about any separate rules we may want to come up with regarding a separate page status to allow people to not be attacked at all. As it is, while pages should try to avoid combat, there is always the risk that combat will come near them and that page hits (pointing a weapon at the page and calling 'Page 3 Normal' for instance) will happen, though physical contact with weapons should not happen.

-Bryan

 

[jpariury]

Here is a copy of the page, as it has existed for about 5 years or so. I've added the underlining to help point to where it specifically addresses that it applies to medical pages, and the part the specifically denotes how pages may be affected.

NERO Seattle Page Policy

It is the intention of NERO Seattle to do its best to safeguard
against potential injury to its participants due to age, medical
condition, or safety hazard. As such, the following policy is
implemented:
1. Any player may participate as a page by his or her own choice.
2. Pages must wear a colored headband to denote their page
status, as defined below.
3. Any player under the age of 14 is under mandatory page
status. The parent or legal guardian is responsible for the page's
actions and must remove the page from the site if asked. The parent or
guardian must keep track of the page and be able to know where the
page is at all times. Children under the age of 8 are not allowed to
participate.
4. Any page that is disruptive, acts in an immature fashion,
does not obey the rules, or in any other way is deemed to be harmful
to the game will be asked to leave.
5. A marshal may recommend that the executive staff place a
player under either page status as defined below due to any condition
that the marshal deems necessary to provide for the safety of NERO
Seattle's participants, such as health conditions or a player having
multiple safety violations marked against them.
6. Pages may not enter combat in any way, including pouring
healing potions in unconscious bodies in the middle of battle. (Others
can drag these bodies to the pages for healing, however.). They must
stay at least ten feet from any active combat zone.
7. Pages may never carry IG weapons, except as noted below.
8. Pages may carry in-game items, and can be searched as per
the search rules.
9. A page may be affected by a normal combatant if the
combatant is within five feet, by having the combatant announce "Page,
I >affect< you." Legal affects are: Spell Name, Gas Name, Waylay,
Slay, Stun Limb, Disarm, Shatter Your >item< (in which case the final
"you" is omitted), or Eviscerate. Applicable spell incants or weapon
skill verbals must still be used (For example: "I call forth a
Dragon's Breath! Page I Dragon's Breath you!" or "Prepare to die! Page
I slay you!"). Additionally, under the same conditions a page may be
struck for damage by adding "Page" to the damage call (ie, "Page, 4
normal!"). The damage called may never exceed that which the player
could normally deal in a single blow.
10. In response to any of the above, a page may call any legal
defenses they have at their disposal.
11. Pages start with 3 less body points and gain them as
normal until they reach 105BP, at which point they stop gaining body
points (voluntary pages and those placed under page status by the
staff are exempt from this rule).
12. Pages earn XP for each event just like any other player,
and upon reaching the age of 14 may create a new character or
rearrange their current character with the BP they have earned.
13. There are two distinct levels of page status:
1. Basic- All pages begin at this level or
participation. Basic pages may not purchase any weapon skill or carry
a weapon in game. They may purchase spells and alchemy, but are only
allowed to touch cast spells, and may not throw gas globes. Basic
level pages must wear an orange headband clearly displaying the word
'PAGE' to denote this status.
2. Advanced- Once a page has demonstrated good
knowledge of the rules and an ability to interact with the game in a
positive manor, they may be granted Advanced status. Advanced pages
may purchase the archery skill (but may only use crossbows), and may
throw spell packets and gas globes. Advanced level pages must wear a
yellow headband to denote this status.

*****************************************
The basic idea is that a page should never intentionally enter combat, however, combat may end up occuring, and pages are as mortal as the rest of the players. They receive no "get out of jail free" card, and can be affected like anyone else (afterall, they receive all of the other benefits of playing: build, treasure, and playing the game). The policy was implemented as a more player-friendly method than the policy suggested in the rulebook, where pages are can only have one thing done to them: they can be killed ("Page, I slay you").

A battle can cause seizures tremors and convulsions. This has been stated to past staff of Seattle Nero. I didnt think things had changed.

If someone *actually* struck you, then they are in violation of the page policy, and they should be brought to the attention of staff or a marshal. If you are not an advanced page (orange headband) and someone threw a packet at you, they are in violation of the policy. I would like to point out, however, that you have not, until recently, played a regular character in the game, and thus, most players have treated you as an OOG observer until recently. What had been stated before was that you were not an active participant in the game (playing a character). If you want to play a character who gains treasure, experience, and takes part in the other characters lives, then under the existing policy, your character must also run the risk of being attacked, killed, looted, etc.

 

[Valvatein]

I was not struck.

I was out of the combat area and attacked by an NPC
it was at 5' and verbal. I was near the edge of the web watching the battle.
when I was approached by a spider. when I was schoked and told that It was leaga,l I asked to get out of there. Wich I did.
This time there were no visual effects of tremors, that doesnt mean there wont be at a later date that is why I have asked these questions.
I then stayed far away from the grove of trees. Out of game view and participation.

I have been playing since the last seattle event without this occuring.
Including all but 3 gamedays this summer.

THank you to everyone who hasnt attached me.

 

[Valvatein]

Thank you for suppling me with the page rules.

 

[Seattle_Dave]

There are firm rules in place that every person who is involved in the game (ie, has a character) takes a risk of that character being attacked and dying. The page rules are set up to allow for those contingencies where a player cannot be struck due to their status. My understanding of your situation, Val, was that you took on the medical page status because of your lack of ability to participate in physical combat. This does not, though, put you in a situation where combat occuring cannot effect you under the current page rules.

The page rules as they stand are in place to ensure that pages are allowed to participate and enjoy the game, even if they cannot participate fully for a variety of reasons, including medical disability; the rules must be enforced as they are unless an exceptional circumstance arises. I think this qualifies. I will be chatting with my staff about this issue to see what, if anything further, can be done to accomodate your circumstances - because it's not just NPC's which can attack you, it's anyone.

 

[Valvatein]

Thank you for your emails.

I entered the game knowing that someone could attack me, It hasnt been an issue until now.
Most players respect my situation and are carful aound me.

My current concern is NPC's I felt I was out of the way and out of range.
IF I had been with the others and was attacked It would have been reasonable.

Is it possible for the October event that the NPC's do not attack me unless i am activly in the combat area?
At an event I again will hide behind the table. we are working on ways to protect me while in the shop.

Can someone explain what a safe zone is? I read 10' the battle was at the other end of the grove.
The circumstances are what made me queston if It is a safe enviornmetn for me.

I took the hits, that is done. What I am trying to do is understand the rules and work with staff so I can have a safe and enjoyable game.

Thank you for your time and consideration.
I apreciate the discusion and explinations.

 

[jpariury]

For my own edification, I am not clear on something....

How is having someone point at you and say "Page, 20 Death" any less safe than someone pointing at you and saying "Ollie ollie oxen free?"

 

[Valvatein]

I know not every one sees my concern, so I ask

would you aproach a person in a wheelcahir that cant fight back or run and hit them even at page distance? Would you do this in real life?

would you confront me if I were not in battle?

How far away from battle is a person safe?
So If I have to stay more than 20' away, instead of 10' is it worth the risk and stress for me to even go? How far away is safe and legal?

Is it a safe envionment? accidents happen I will accept that, will I be aprouched by NPC"S at the October event if I am clearly not seeking combat?

Can an NPC attack a page that is not in the combat zone?

I felt I was safe on the sideline this is no longer true. I dont know of a safe zone at all.

I understand the page rules, yOu can be hit at page distance in a combat area.
Can a person go directly to a page that is obviously out of combat and put them in combat?
if that is the case I no longer feel comfortable in this situation.


I am not qestioning the rules but want clarification and understanding of the rules. I would also like others to know the answers so we will have less questons and problems later. it is best to ask when it happens then to wait and bring it up later.

so call ollie ox and free and if I face you in a battle call page hits. If I put myself in that situation then I am accepting the combat.
if I am not in combat or in the area I would like to be left alone and not attacked is that possible?

Right now my understanding is that anyone NPC or PC can walk up to me and call hits even if I am alone on the side lines. If I try to leave in the chair I can be followed at 5' out and be killed, or they can continue with the hits. I cannot throw a packet or cary a sword I would not hurt anyone or attack them, but it is legal for them to attck me for no reason. I was alone more than 10' away from the combat far enough that no one could get to me to help me get to a safe place. In a place where combat came to me, I did not move because they have always just passed me by.


Thanks for your time and consideration.

 

[Sarah]

Ah, but Val, does a spider have the intelligence to recognize such a thing? All NPC cards have an intelligence level on them and NPCs are encouraged to play to that level.

However, NPCs are also encouraged to be smart about it.

In general, there are only really two reasons why an NPC should be attacking a page.
1. You got close "enough" and the intelligence of the monster is low enough to not make the distinction. (10' is really the minimum you want to be at)
2. You're being specifically targetted in order to create drama and heroism for the other characters.

Neither should occur very often at all.

However, you also have to keep in mind that, as a player character, you can be attacked by other player characters who want your stuff.

It is intended that there be risk to your character in some fashion. There's absolutely no reason for this risk to occur in such a way as to cause risk to yourself.

So, I have to ask, what about being attacked caused this for you? Was it the sheer suprise of the action or the volume/tone of the action? Was it something else about the way you were approached/the incident occured?

 

[jpariury]

would you aproach a person in a wheelcahir that cant fight back or run and hit them even at page distance? Would you do this in real life?

We are not discussing real life, we are discussing a fantasy game. I would not. Evil guy #82 in the land of Fortannis might. If I am playing evil guy #82 and have a good reason to attack you, I would, within the page rules as outlined above.

would you confront me if I were not in battle?

It would depend on the situation. Are you healing people brought to you? Are you blocking my way out? Are you invading my space? Does the creature I am playing have a reason to try and go after you? Honestly, in times prior, I haven't played a creature that had a reason to, so it never came up for me. I debated it as the goblin I played last Oregon event, but decided that it would be more interesting and keeping with his character to try and have you sell stuff for him than to attack you and steal your stuff. If I had been playing someone more evil, and with a good reason to take you down and steal your stuff, I probably would have.

How far away from battle is a person safe?

The only portion of the site that is IG and does not allow combat is the kitchen. All other portions of the sites that are IG are valid locations to engage in combat.

So If I have to stay more than 20' away, instead of 10' is it worth the risk and stress for me to even go?

That is a decision you need to make for yourself. Ultimately, NERO is a game that has combat. Ultimately, as the policy stands, whether or not you are comfortable playing in a game that has combat is something only you can decide.

How far away is safe and legal?

Is it a safe envionment? accidents happen I will accept that, will I be aprouched by NPC"S at the October event if I am clearly not seeking combat?

Again, it would depend on the situation. If your character were to sit on the edge of a bear cave, I don't believe you should be surprised if the bear takes a swing at you (while the player points and says "Page, 5 Normal"), even if when combat starts, that edge is ten or more feet away.

Can an NPC attack a page that is not in the combat zone?

See above. There are no "non-combat zones" other than the kitchen, which is a non-combat zone for a number of reasons, primarily safety for the populace as a whole. (My personal opinion is that the kitchen should either be completely OOG, or everyone in the kitchen is on temporary Page status, but that is a different discussion entirely.)

Can a person go directly to a page that is obviously out of combat and put them in combat?

Yes.

if that is the case I no longer feel comfortable in this situation.

Understood.

I am not qestioning the rules but want clarification and understanding of the rules. I would also like others to know the answers so we will have less questons and problems later. it is best to ask when it happens then to wait and bring it up later.

I completely understand, and I am glad that you brought this up.

so call ollie ox and free and if I face you in a battle call page hits. If I put myself in that situation then I am accepting the combat.

You haven't actually answered the question though. I am trying to understand the difference in terms of your safety. Why are you more safe if someone points and says something non-sensical than if someone points and says something as it relates to combat? Is it a question of stimulus-based chemistry-based issues, like noise and flashy colors causing epileptic seizures (such like many people might have playing loud flashing video games), or is it a psychological stress-induced response? If it is the first, then we can certainly try and make sure that if you are attacked, people do so in a calm manner, without yelling or swinging things around your head. If it is the second, my feeling is that you might want to look into whether or not it is a risk you want to take.

if I am not in combat or in the area I would like to be left alone and not attacked is that possible?

Possible, yes. Likely, not with 100% certainty. If you are playing a character, then you are agreeing to play the game, which includes an element of combat in one sense or another.

Right now my understanding is that anyone NPC or PC can walk up to me and call hits even if I am alone on the side lines. If I try to leave in the chair I can be followed at 5' out and be killed, or they can continue with the hits. I cannot throw a packet or cary a sword I would not hurt anyone or attack them, but it is legal for them to attck me for no reason.

These are all true. The likelihood of that occurring depends on the situation, including what kind of creature it is, what you might be doing to warrant its attention, etc.

I was alone more than 10' away from the combat far enough that no one could get to me to help me get to a safe place.

My understanding is that you were in the area of the mod, right at the edge of a spider's web. If that were true, then I would suggest that it was less safe than, say, in a tavern. This isn't to say that you should remain in the tavern, only that there is an increased chance of being attacked there.

Generally speaking, I would say that no one would intentionally send out monsters to attack your character, and that if you remain in town-type areas (the tavern, etc), you are less likely to be attacked. At the same time, if you become involved with the plotlines, help out people with healing and the like, and gain more treasure through selling things and such, you will increase the chance of combat occuring around you, and being targetted "in the spur of the moment".

It seems to me that there is a difference in your understanding of what being a page means, and what the policy upholds.

The policy is not meant to allow players to avoid combat. The policy acknowledges that combat is a part of the game, but the immediate physical aspects of it may cause undo harm to some players, due to age or medical reasoning. As such, the policy makes it so that the immediate physical dangers are removed, while still permitting combat to occur for all players.

Playing a page does not mean that your character cannot be attacked. Playing a page means that you will not be physically struck by a weapon.

I see nothing immoral about pointing at a page and calling "Page 2 Normal" because the page has agreed to play the game under those rules.

I have a few other ideas that might also work for you and your particular situation, but I'll need time to work things out, and nothing will ever be a 100% guarantee. Things can be done to reduce the likelihood of it occurring, but as the policy stands, pages are valid targets in every location that players are valid targets.

 

[Maxondaerth]

First off, Val, I'm sorry that this happening has caused you stress. I have a feeling, however, that instead of trying to make you feel picked on or harrassed, the NPC who was "hitting" you was probably trying to make you feel more like part of the group and what was going on instead of intentionally ignoring the person in the wheelchair while all the fun was going on (most people equating getting wailed on with fun ya see ). I may be wrong there, but I know if I were out there and saw you tagging along with the people charging off instead of staying behind like you normally do, I might have done the same thing to try and make you feel like you were one of the gang and not treating you any differently, if you see what I mean.

Also, I wanna say from the get-go that I know a lot of us love seeing ya there. You're a fun person to hang out with and RP with and both my characters really dig you IG. I would hate to see you stop playing for any reason, especially though if it seemed like we forced you to feel like you had to stop playing. All that being said, there are some things that have been said/hinted around that you may want to think about as well.

The whole idea behind Nero, and Larps in general, is for all the participants to do whatever they can to blurr the line between reality and fantasy. You try and leave OOG considerations at the door, and play as though everything in the game environment is real. You, playing a fairly successful merchant type, obviously have a decent amount of IG money and valuables on/with your character. If I am playing a greedy thief type (and I have :laugh: ) then your character would obviously be on my list of possible targets. Now, Jeff knows that Val isn't here to get into combat, she's here to hang out with fun people and Roleplay. If we go by the spirit of what Nero is all about, Dastardly Dan, the thief (played by Jeff) only knows that Valvatine has loot. He also knows that Polare and Chicken Leg Jack have fairly hefty coin purses cause he played cards with them earlier that day and saw them pocket some decent amount of gold.Now, Dastardly Dan knows that there are many opportunities to rob people, especially when things like trolls attacking the tavern diverts everyone's attention towards the trolls. So, let's say trolls attack, and in the middle of it all, for whatever reason, both Jack and Valvatine are currently off to the side of battle, and equally vulnerable. Dan Waylay's Jack and pockets his purse right away, but the battle's still on and Valvatine is still vulnerable. Would it be fair to those involved not to rob Valvatine just because OOG she's in a wheelchair, even though both Val and Doug have paid to play, have worked to earn that coin, and by entering as PC's have stated that they are participating in a game where IG danger is rampant?

Secondly, if by being startled or overstimulated by combat could lead to a seizure and possible injury for you, how would it make another player feel if they caused that to happen? I know I'd feel really bad if I caused something like that to happen to a fellow player, just like I feel bad when I cause someone to trip and fall while chasing them through the woods or catch them in the face with a weapon and tear out their eyebrow ring (saw that happen once, yeeeouch!).

Anyway, I know I'll really miss you if you decide you can't participate any more after all this, Val. But, I did want to make sure that since it was open and being discussed, you considered all the ramifications if you decided to continue playing as it is now. I hope you can work something out with the staff that will allow you to keep with us.

 

[Valvatein]

I am not a healer, nor do I try to cheat or steal from others.

the curtosy I have seen in the past is now gone. The holds no longer exist this makes me nervouse

I understand about being rolled, to that i carry little cash.
I make money in game and spend alot of it in game. I stock what I have for the convienince of PC's
Yes i am considered a well off merchant to some.

I have never been concerned because no one has done anything to me before. I had rats steal in Oregon it was fun RP but I also had towns people looking out for me.

Stress, pain, change of temperature noises and many other things cause my tremors and convulsions. I bring a live in caregiver with me to events. I cannot come without one.
It wasnt the page hits it was that It came to me. yes it shocked me. No there was no visual shaking it still caused problems for me.
THese questions are so others dont have to feel uncomfortable or bad once an incident has started. They are to protect all of us.

For today I have had enough stress I will look at the questions when things are better for me. I will reply then
thanks for the concern and questions.

 

[Valvatein]

To Sarah
The shock was that I was observing not participating.
I was seperate from the group, I would undrstand if I had been robbed, or if i was healing. I was alone.

THe NPC may have been trying to include me, I understand that.
I cant explain what I felt or why, I cant expain what my ife is like on a normal day
this has been a very tough week and if it would have been an event I probably would have stayed home.

If I go to an event I will be warned, I will also protect myself. Since this has come up I feel more vunerable and subect to attack. I will make a dicision on my own.
NO i do not feel safe in anymore.

if you want my money and treasure you will have to work for it.

again thank youfor your coments
If any decisions are made by staff I would like it posted so people can see it
other wise I am closing the discusion on my part.

thanks

 

[Seattle_Dave]

The option that we are very strongly leaning toward is "fate of party." All that remains is rules sign off on this, which I doubt will be an issue. What this means:

1. When Val is in a party which engages in combat, she will go OOC and her life tag will be considered to be involved in the combat.

2. She will not be able to heal or interact until the combat is over, and only then if the person designated as having her tag is alive.

3. Obviously, her person will not be able to be attacked in any fashion while this is happening.

At an event, there is always the possibility of PvP. Val already recognizes this. It is the other forms of combat which are the true issue, from my understanding.

 

[jpariury]

What do you suggest Val does if she is on her own?

Does this mean that if a character (PC or NPC) wants to take out Val's character, they need to take out the entire party, or just one person?

What if there is no combat, and Val's character takes an action that would cause someone to attack her, but no one else? (Sells a sleep scroll in front of a militant MWE, for instance)

Scenario: Val is in the tavern. Party A walks in, throws plates on the floor, kicks over chairs, etc. Party B comes in and attacks them. Which party is Val's character fated to? Does this answer change if one party consists of PCs and one party consists of NPCs? Do we call a hold and ask her which party she's a member of? What if a third party comes in and throws everyone into a Prison effect? Is she prison'ed as well, or did she suddenly shift to being a member of the third party?

Scenario: Val is being escorted out of the tavern by a group of goblins, ostensibly making her part of their party. A group of PCs runs in to rescue her. Do the PCs have to expend a life spell for her if they kill all of the goblins?

If Val's character's fate is assigned to a specific character, who chooses that character, and what are the criteria for doing so? Obviously, linking her character card to, say, Gregor, Polare, or Krieger is more advantageous than linking it to a page or 1st level character.

 

[Brewer]

As of right now I think this discussion be moved out of the open untill staff can come up with a solution either on the Marshals board or to where the staff can get together and talk more about it. The issue has been brought up and is being worked out. I no longer see this as an issue with the Page rules, those are VERY clear.

Thank you,

Nick Brewer
Plot/Props

 

[jpariury]

Agreed that we've moved well beyond page rules, however, players are accountable for abiding by the rules, whatever they ultimately might be. As has been stated, the goal is to get these issues discussed before the event so that A - Val can make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to attend, and B - we don't have to call holds midstream while people figure out what to do. As well, TMK, Val does not have access to the marshal boards, and cannot provide her input on what will fit within the realm of safety for her condition.

 

[Valvatein]

Thank yo for moving this.