Market Value, its Math, and My thoughts... open discussion

[Klandaghi]

Hi All,

So it's gone back and forth a few times the debate about market price being double production. I'm personally in support of that for a few simple reasons and I'll list them shortly. For those that want to go deeper into it I'll explain my reasoning as to why I think the rules may be the way they are and how the translation works across to other skills.

Short easy list explanation:

1. The Math is super easy. Production * 2 = Market Value
2. It allows haggle room AKA role play opportunity.
3. It allows higher level crafters (10+) to make their first batch, sell at market, and still make a profit
4. It allows crafters to make something that is usable in game and gain a profit for spending build to be able to do that.

The Long thought process. I decided to take a look at the Item Crafter skills Vs. Craftsman as a skill. Using that I tried to determine what the 1 to 1 would be so that a Master Item Crafter makes what a Craftsman does. As the description for Craftstman states you are a master of your craft and make 1 Silver per day to do what you do, to me that equates to 20 levels of an Item Crafter Skill per master title seemingly conveyed with secondary ability gained as well. Not bad for just 1 - 2 Build Points right? So let's look at that. If there was not the discounted "efficiency" curve that came into play, that would mean that a player with 20 levels of Item Crafting skill would need to charge a 10% mark up on production to match that coin. That sounds reasonable, I could potentially roll with that. Now let's look at the build needed to reach that point. That's 60 build for the best case scenario in most Item Crafting Professions (40 for Dwarves doing Blacksmkith). Place this next to taking 1 level of Craftsman anything, 2 Build (1 Build for Mystic Wood Elves). Or in perspective, 30 levels of Craftsman using the same 60 build means 3 Gold a day. So why would ANYONE want to take an Item Crafting ability with that kind of mark up? It makes literally no sense and while I'm not for gaming the system on most characters, there's a point where you're shooting yourself in both feet and then planning to run a marathon. We live in a world where the markup is not common knowledge, the market price is. Setting Market to a level that rewards players that choose to play that type of character fills out the world as opposed to forcing everyone to play a caster or a beat stick making us RELY on the NPC Economy to be something we find agreeable and acceptable, but without a PC player base to work against, they have an monopoly and can do what they want. *imagines Ferengi merchants and shudders*

As is, with a 100% mark up, which sounds horrible I agree, you still make at best half what craftsman does for your Build Point invested and just under half when you get to the 10 skill curve. The thing is, that there is a perceived gain that might encourage people to pick up the skill and use it or even make a character centered around it with an economy that supports that class. I'm not stating my logic is the end all be all and I don't want people to think I'm not open to other ideas, I would like folks to consider all variables that are going into this and why the game is actually still a little harsh on people that craft items as opposed to take Craftsman Skill. Lastly, when you travel and you have to rely on the NPCs to provide your goods, what happens if they aren't there like the deserted island after the Monkey Island Cannibals?

Math Charts:
Without the Curve

Skill Level	Production	100% Markup	10% Markup	Cost	100% Profit	10% Profit
1	5	10	6	5	5	1
2	10	20	11	10	10	1
3	15	30	17	15	15	2
4	20	40	22	20	20	2
5	25	50	28	25	25	3
6	30	60	33	30	30	3
7	35	70	39	35	35	4
8	40	80	44	40	40	4
9	45	90	50	45	45	5
10	50	100	55	50	50	5
11	55	110	61	55	55	6
12	60	120	66	60	60	6
13	65	130	72	65	65	7
14	70	140	77	70	70	7
15	75	150	83	75	75	8
16	80	160	88	80	80	8
17	85	170	94	85	85	9
18	90	180	99	90	90	9
19	95	190	105	95	95	10
20	100	200	110	100	100	10

With the Curve

Skill Level	Production	100% Markup	10% Markup	Cost	100% Profit	10% Profit
1	5	10	6	5	5	1
2	10	20	11	10	10	1
3	15	30	17	15	15	2
4	20	40	22	20	20	2
5	25	50	28	25	25	3
6	30	60	33	30	30	3
7	35	70	39	35	35	4
8	40	80	44	40	40	4
9	45	90	50	45	45	5
10	50	100	55	40	60	15
11	55	110	61	44	66	17
12	60	120	66	48	72	18
13	65	130	72	52	78	20
14	70	140	77	56	84	21
15	75	150	83	60	90	23
16	80	160	88	64	96	24
17	85	170	94	68	102	26
18	90	180	99	72	108	27
19	95	190	105	76	114	29
20	100	200	110	80	120	30

 

[KnightKlaw]

TLDR: 20 ranks of craftsman is 40 build (20 for MWE) and provides 2 gold per game day of free income. 20 ranks of a profession skill is at least 60 build (40 for dwarven blacksmith of appropriate class) and, at 100% markup over production cost, provides 1 gold 2 silver per day. This profit ratio is worsened for production skills if below 10 ranks of the skill.

Conclusion: Even selling at 100% markup over production cost, you're far better off taking craftsman skills if your goal is to make money. In order for a profession skill to net more money than a craftsman skill, you have to sell at 200% markup and have 10+ ranks of a profession.


I don't know about anyone else, but to me this is pretty enlightening. IMHO production should be valued a lot more than it currently is, and also highlights the damage of a goblin stamp production exchange. Sure, you're limited to 100 goblin stamps in production, but that's 20 ranks of a production skill, and it's production you don't have to pay any coin to obtain, so it's basically double-dipping in benefit. I realize having a production skill offers alternate benefits (refitting being the most commonly valued one), while craftsman skills offer no in-game benefit besides coin.... I just don't think that in game benefit is worth this profit disparity.

Given the rate of inflation, I am forced to wonder if in a longer-running game with a higher amount of coin floating around, 200% or more markup is common. In that case the profession skills clearly would pull ahead.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

I don't understand what you are advocating for here. In the other thread you said you became a blacksmith because you enjoyed the role play. What are you suggesting should change with this thread?

 

[MKing]

From an outside perspective, when dealing with production. The "market value" is equal to level in silver. Meaning that for every 5 production points equals one level, when dealing with armor, weapons and alchemy. Scrolls and potions use the level of the spell(which does = 5pp per level). This is what I've done with spilts for loot, and what I have found to be the "norm" on the East coast.

Just thought I would throw that out there.

Matt K.

 

[Klandaghi]

The point of this thread is to pull the market value topic out of the Merchant's Guild Thread, it is a separate topic that impacts more then the Merchant's Guild. The Merchant's Guild is influenced by it in that it should maintain prices around Market. That said, It would be great if the game had an agreed upon and established market value.

What I am advocating is that people seem to think that people with pure Item Crafting abilities are just rolling in money and have it easy. We're not. I do like the role play aspect and I don't think I'd ever advocate for a 200% mark up. But if you were to break it down to build point to money conversion, no one would every play a Item Crafter cause it isn't efficient for coin. I could put points into Craftsman, not have to deal with anyone else and be rolling in money and more coming each game. People also seem to be under the impression that just because market value is set at a certain point, everyone will sell at it at all times and never work out a discounts. I expect that may be the case with the Merchants guild, unless you are a member. I'm trying to shed light on the fact that having a steady and easily determined market value that is profitable helps the game. It isn't out of greed. If I wanted to be greedy I wouldn't mess with anyone and sit on the OCS skills and just get rich.

Level in Silver = Market Value is the same as the 100% mark up that we are talking about in effect 5pp item = 10 copper or 1 silver. It's a different way of saying the same thing.

The main reason Blacksmith is so cheep is that there is a front loaded pre-requisit cost to be even able to start making items through Alchemy, Create Potion, Create Scroll, and Create Trap.

Profit at Market Value being double production Per Build Point Spent:

	Skill Rank	Build Cost	Market Value Profit	Profit Per Build Point Spent
MWE Craftsman	10	10	100	10
Dwarven Blacksmith Post 10 w/Workshop	10	20	120	6
Craftsman	1	2	10	5
Blacksmith Post 10 w/Workshop	10	30	120	4
Create Trap for a Rogue Post 10 w/Workshop	10	34	120	3.529411765
Create Scroll for an Artisan Post 10 w/Workshop	10	36	120	3.333333333
Create Potion for a Scholar Post 10 w/Workshop	10	38	120	3.157894737
Dwarven Blacksmith Post 10	10	20	60	3
Dwarven Blacksmith Sub 10	1	2	5	2.5
Item Crafter Post 10	10	30	60	2
Create Trap for a Rogue Post 10	10	34	60	1.764705882
Create Scroll for an Artisan Post 10	10	36	60	1.666666667
Blacksmith Sub 10	1	3	5	1.666666667
Create Potion for a Scholar Post 10	10	38	60	1.578947368
Create Trap for a Rogue Sub 10 w/Workshop	1	7	10	1.428571429
Create Scroll for an Artisan Sub 10 w/Workshop	1	9	10	1.111111111
Create Potion for a Scholar Sub 10 w/Workshop	1	11	10	0.909090909
Create Trap for a Rogue Sub 10	1	7	5	0.714285714
Create Scroll for an Artisan Sub 10	1	9	5	0.555555556
Dwarven Blacksmith Sub 10 w/Workshop	1	20	10	0.5
Create Potion for a Scholar Sub 10	1	11	5	0.454545455
Blacksmith Sub 10 w/Workshop	1	30	5	0.166666667

 

[Jake Otter]

Just my 2 cents, I did hear rumors that one of the things the next rules change is supposed to be working on is more late-game cool stuff for crafter classes, which I agree is rather needed. I know I still struggle to figure out what to do with myself to make sure I'm not a total financial drain on my friends in the game, especially now that our casters are hitting 8th and 9th level spells and I don't need to make Wizard Locks any more. Reading scrolls in the dark is cool and all, but all my actual caster buddies can cast in the dark, too, and can do a hell of a lot more than 1 or 2 Dragon's Breaths a game.

 

[MKing]

yeah, I get that its the 100%. What I was trying to let you know that, in chapters that have been around for awhile, this is the going rate for Production items. Yes, the price can bounce around sometimes. Depending on what might be needed at the time, supply and demand.

But again, this is your chapter and you can try and make a workable economy if you wish.

If you looking to get the most coin for you build, then in the end, just take craftsmen other.

@Jake Otter, make magic armor, spell shield scrolls or release, awakens or Dispel scrolls. This way either your casters can take other spells at those levels or your group will have more of those spells, giving you a better chance in big fights. Just a thought.

 

[Lurin]

As a person that plays a massive crafter about half my time, very much while traveling, I will note that the chapters I go to that try to get the absolute lowest price (100% mark up? Nah I'll pay you 10% mark up, but I'll buy in BULK!...eh no thanks) generally have very few, if any crafters (aside from that one master dwarf that seems to be required in most chapters). A few notes I've found as a crafter/helper Rabbitkin over the years.

1.) People will pay more for the experience, add some RP involved with the ordering process, there have been times where I've finished maxing out my production simply because the other PCs noted that my character wanted desperately to help in the only way he really knows how. Interestingly enough this often leads pcs to have options they wouldn't have otherwise at times.

2.) Convenience - as stated in another topic, buying things at production cost instantly is a great way to have stock on hand, want to cut your loot split time down by a factor of ten? Have the merchant just make it money for you.

3.) Don't try to please everyone - often when I travel I'll hit people who refuse to pay a "reasonable rate (as defined by my character of course)" and those who won't Focus on the ones willing to pay, a good percentage of the time other folks will come around when they realize you aren't desperate for their business.

4.) It's okay to have a "Stock building" Game, things ebb and flow even in a local chapter where a merchant is doing well. That those events to build up a stockpile of things that will be needed, cure light wounds, antidotes, or for bigger environments cure mortal wounds/purifies. Walls of Force/Dispels, Enslavement Antidotes and Paralysis Gas these are all things that will sell given some patience.

5.) (Extremely optional, it works for my character might not for yours) - Don't use your own stock when things get into trouble. Why should people buy your purifies if you will give them out for free if they need them? Unfortunately production costs money, so it's best to sell a solid portion of it to ensure it can continue to be produced.

6.) It's crazy possible to make a lot of money from crafting skills, but it requires more participation than just trading coins for tags at logistics.

I'll come show you myself as soon as my artisan can get under the cap ^.^

 

[Thorgrim]

The problem I see with set prices being double production cost is that the value of certain craftable items does not always match their production cost. Let's look at purify for instance. It's a great potion no doubt. However at 8 silver a pop there are very few instances where I would rather spend 8 silver than just wait 10 minutes for an effect to wear off. 8 silver is probably 20 percent of the money I will make in a weekend. Unless someone is going to die or we are going to lose a battle purify is not worth it to me. It would probably be worth 4 silver to me but then the crafter wouldnt make any money. It's a conundrum certainly, but unless a better option presents itself I am okay with market being set at double production, but I will refrain from buying player crafted items in many cases and continue to use gobs because it is a better use of resources and cheaper.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

Market Value should be what you can make money at and people will pay. If you try to artificially create this value you are doomed to failure. I think its metagaming to agree with people out of character to pay a certain amount or try to convince other players of that. What characters will pay for items should be a case of find out in game.

 

[PirateFox]

Edit: Guess no sense in objecting to one player calling another a cheater if neither side cares. /shrug Duke it out among yourselves.

Nothing to see here.

 

[Klandaghi]

So then who is going to hire an economist to run the game and ensure that values match up to what people are paying vs. cost to make. What you find off monsters isn't part of the market till you bring it to the market and sell it for what you can. Without a predefined starting point for what is reasonable how can you set a price to trade at? The idea behind a base market value is to ensure there is value in the game for people playing those characters. It's fine though. When you are reduced to relying on drops instead of having crafters in game cause players can't agree on what is a reasonable value that has worked for all other game locations and has worked in the past for this game then you'll be at the mercy of the NPC set economy, which I'm trying to set on all sides. I'm stepping out as a player. I'm stepping into an NPC roll and trying to keep things fair and stable for the game. This is to set prices at NPC organizations in a manner that does not prevent player crafters from making money because the NPCs are undercutting them, but provides a place to buy things needed if the players run out. It's great that you think that things should sell for material cost or less. Wolsey is right thought, it IS metagaming to provide a foundation starting point and it isn't even max profit for build meta gaming. it's reasonable levels of metagaming IMO. Much like Steering. People act like Metagaming is the prime ultimate evil in role playing, but everyone does it. Tell me that you've ignored your friends and let your character make their connections purely in game. I dare you. That's metagame steering and it isn't a bad thing. It helps create groups that work on a level and add enjoyment. Players that want to metagame and not have levels of the skill and state that no one should pay more then production cost is another level of metagaming. I have no issue with talking about metagaming as in all truth, I started it by talking about gaming the system. Which is in effect metagaming. The Merchant skill would not apply to crafted items anymore because you need to check in with a stock market like system to know what is worth how much at that time. Instead of focusing on all of that, I've recommended a system that is the norm in the national game across other sites. I am not speaking to Magically crafted items like scrolls and potions. I speaking to mundane crafted items and asking can we as players agree to not have to start a stock exchange to manage actual Market value? If not, will you volunteer to manage and track all transactions to make sure that works properly? Does that seem unrealistic?

Edit: I appreciate the sentiment on standing up to what could be perceived as calling me a cheater. I do not take it as a directly intended insult, but more a statement of what was being seen. Reviewing it, I cannot argue against the observation if you are going to take meta-gaming as being 100% equivalent to cheating. That would mean that steering would be a form of cheating even though it is a solution for trying to manage conflict resolution in the game. Not all meta gaming is cheating in my eyes, nor is it always an evil.

 

[Cedric]

"This is to set prices at NPC organizations in a manner that does not prevent player crafters from making money because the NPCs are undercutting them, but provides a place to buy things needed if the players run out."

That's it. That's the key. I didn't quite understand what was being asked before but I think the above sentence that Radulfur says makes sense. What is the cost that an NPC should charge for something that allows room underneath it for players to undercut it and still yet make money. 2 times production is the correct price. I think that gives so much leeway to undercharge if you want, but still have a sword available for those emergency occasions. I think the "player" run part of the economy can't expect that most of the time they will ever get 2x production for what they make. Since journeyman crafters already make it at .8 x production, I think the actual cost that PCs can expect to charge is somewhere in the ballpark IMHO of 1.0-1.5x production at least at our stage of the economy. That still gives them up to a .7 x production of profit margin at the high end. If they hustle and create a shortage in our economy, I bet a crafter could get close to 2x production, but that would take a lot of work.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

I think its great that the merchant's guild NPC run half of the organization wants to charge x2 production in cost. As long as players can do whatever they want I think your argument for the merchant's guild makes a lot of sense. This last post makes a lot of sense to me and I think you have it right that giving players the ability to undercut increases role play in the game.

I don't think you need to get an OOC agreement from the players either. The merchant's guild can charge whatever it wants and the players will respond based on if they need the good at that price.

Edit: Looks like Cedric responded a few minutes sooner than me with the same thing.

 

[Klandaghi]

The reason for the OOC topic was fear that stating NPC organization 2x production cost could be seen as too high. I'm one of three people working on opening up the Merchant's guild again for extended hours during game. There were complaints on pricing before and we want to have it set so the NPC side is stable to work off of. Radulfr has had no issues with setting up agreements for less then that, but still over production so there is a profit still. In effect, it also creates a cap as to what PC crafters can expect to make as why buy over market price when I can hit up the Merchant's guild for Market.

I'm sorry that I missed getting that point out sooner and why I was so impassioned by it. It's not that players should expect to make 2x production all the time. It's that players should expect to really not make more then 2x production unless they see a need and really want to exploit it.

 

[Thorgrim]

I agree in a way with both John and Keith here. No matter what you set prices at, people are only going to pay what they feel something is worth, and if the price is a predetermined OOG construct that people feel is too high, it is quite likely that that people IG simply won't buy it (IE Strengthening). Markets are complex but supply and demand are not, and with or without analysis the market will determine some sort of value regardless of anything we do about it. If somebody wants to come in and undercut an established pre-negotiated price there is absolutely nothing to stop them, unless there is some IP organization that decides to take matters into their own hands to stifle competition. There are always going to be players willing to sell at or near cost because they aren't concerned with profit, but instead are more concerned with helping allies out, and bartering in favors and good will. This might not win them many friends amongst their fellow crafters, but that's a very small percentage of the overall player base.

On the other hand, we suffer from a pretty huge problem right now in that our economy is almost entirely murder based. There should be a place in this world to make money in ways other than killing bad guys or buying ranks of craftsman which basically amounts to just trading build for gold. We should try to include player crafting abilities in this world, flawed as they are, because it makes a more rich game world. By having a set price it can provide a bit of corrective action for the problem of crafting skills not being designed well so it can provide some sort of ROI so crafting skills are not simply skills to purchase just for role playing purposes. I will also agree that there has to be some metagaming in terms of pricing because as Mike and Keith pointed out, the merchants guild is not going to sell at "fair market value" and instead will always operate at fixed prices. Their prices need to be set in such a way so that they do not run off any player created competition for goods.

Ultimately the economy of this larp will always be broken without a major rules overhaul, and drastic changes to the way things are currently done. That isn't to say that we shouldn't try to make our imperfect system better, but we must work with what we are given, and acknowledge that whatever solution we devise will be an imperfect one.