Frail & Sturdy - Is this necessary?

[Saephis]

We've seen a couple revisions of this go through in the last couple revisions, however the current state of the Frail/Sturdy Race proposal is the following:

Racial selection no longer impacts your Body Point total, even for a brand-new character. All characters now start with 10 Body Points. Additional build can be purchased through the Hearty skill, whose cost changes based on how "sturdy" or "frail" the race is in the world of Fortannis.

With this proposed rule, an Orc Scholar can buy body at the same race as an Hobling Fighter, as an example.

Rather than debating on if this is balanced, I feel the question is more relevant for "Is this a necessary piece of rules?" Personally, I feel that this is a holdover of different parties looking to other game systems and settings, and attempting to incorporate this into Alliance. While the question also contains another in "What value does this add to Alliance?"

 

[Sage of Legaia]

I'm rather indifferent to it; it doesn't seem to add anything, but I also don't think it takes anything away, either?

While I understand it's odd that a High Orc Scholar can purchase Hearty for the same as a Hobling Fighter, the national race packets also paint various races as particularly good at certain things, including being overall more or less durable than others; in the current rules that's represented by +2/-1 initial Body, but it's been replicated by the Sturdy/Frail rule around Hearty to keep it more or less in line with the removal of things like double cost of Read and Write. High Orcs don't have more initial Body than anyone else anymore just by virtue of being a High Orc, but it's fairly consistent with the current rules that they might be able to purchase more Body for a lower cost than another Race.

Each Race is kind of 'encouraged' towards certain classes and specialties under the current rules by their benefits and drawbacks; Hoblings are 'encouraged' towards Rogue/Artisan by cheap Legerdemain and heavy Weapon skill restrictions, High Orcs are 'encouraged' towards Fighter by increased Body and Racial Proficiency. I just see Sturdy/Frail being a different way of doing the same thing after skill restriction Racial drawbacks have been mostly removed.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well? But I'm not sure how to better word my thoughts just now. :/

 

[mythic]

It adds flavor to the races? So not everything is a cookie cutter. An Orc or Ogre is, in most fantasy, a "beefier" race than an Elf. It sets them apart a little. The only thing this effects is those who wish to purchase Hearty. For those that do not, it will have no impact upon their character.

In the current 1.3 rules there are bonuses and negatives that mean very little once you add a few XP into a character. Even in the early playtests, adding or subtracting BP to races was confusing for new players ("when do I remove the 1 BP, at 10? Is that my modified 10? Or when I would normally have 10") and I have had to explain to a lot of people how that worked.

This keeps the "spirit" of that flavour while making it very easy for a player to add body to their character if they so choose.

 

[mikestrauss]

Extra body / reduced body is a balancing factor for the races. In the old system, it was a poorly implemented balancing factor. The proposed rules, while maybe not perfect, implement this balancing factor a lot better, in great part because the benefit / penalty can potentially apply multiple times.

Is Alliance race balancing perfect? Far from it.
Is this concept of extra body / reduced body an artifact of other games (specifically D&D)? Heck, yes. But just because it is an artifact, that doesn't mean it is a bad idea. Many artifacts are, but some are actually quite valuable. I think this falls into the latter category.

-MS

 

[Draven]

I find the idea that a character is considered cookie-cutter by whether they have more or less body to be....odd.

Characters that I have played with are far more defined by their appearance, personality, and role than whether or not they have twenty more Body or not.

I'm generally opposed to racial penalties that discourage race/class combinations (such as Dryad Fighters, due to Armor restrictions). That doesn't encourage "unique" builds. That discourages "bad" builds.

Let's be honest, here. "Frail" is bad.

 

[Draven]

Extra body / reduced body is a balancing factor for the races.

No, it's not. There are a number of posts from people of authority who have stated that all racial penalties/advantages are purely for flavor and NOT for balance.

 

[Kasuni]

First off - I love the clarity of the basic poll!!!

Second, I don't think it's necessary. Body has a big influence on combat and how the game is played, and I don't think there should be a disadvantage to combat for playing a fantasy race - I think we should encourage it to keep the flavor of Alliance. I prefer this revision to the -1 body clause in previous iterations, but I would still prefer it is just removed.

 

[mythic]

Second, I don't think it's necessary. Body has a big influence on combat and how the game is played

But this effect does not in any way impact the Body stat, unless you want it to. And that just adds to the base body that everyone now gets (no bonus, no penalty as there currently is). If your character never wants to purchase Hearty, Frail or Sturdy in no way impacts them.

Having some differences in the races is akin to having skill points different for classes.

 

[Draven]

But this effect does not in any way impact the Body stat, unless you want it to. And that just adds to the base body that everyone now gets (no bonus, no penalty as there currently is). If your character never wants to purchase Hearty, Frail or Sturdy in no way impacts them.

Having some differences in the races is akin to having skill points different for classes.

Imagine if High Orcs (or other "Stupid" races) were required to spend an extra build point for Formals or 9th level spells.

People would lose their minds.

Penalizing the ability to buy a skill isn't good for the game. Period.

 

[Saephis]

If your character never wants to purchase Hearty, Frail or Sturdy in no way impacts them.

Imagine if High Orcs (or other "Stupid" races) were required to spend an extra build point for Formals or 9th level spells.

The difference, I feel, on other skills that races have higher (and lower) cost on is that they're one-time. Hearty and Formal (or spells) are multi-purchase abilities, you aren't hitting that penalty multiple times with anything else.

Elves/Elf Types don't get an additional multiplier on damage for Archery, Wylderkyn don't pay extra for every spell they purchase. Why start that with Hearty?

 

[A.mungo]

It adds flavor to the races? So not everything is a cookie cutter. An Orc or Ogre is, in most fantasy, a "beefier" race than an Elf. It sets them apart a little. The only thing this effects is those who wish to purchase Hearty. For those that do not, it will have no impact upon their character.

In the current 1.3 rules there are bonuses and negatives that mean very little once you add a few XP into a character. Even in the early playtests, adding or subtracting BP to races was confusing for new players ("when do I remove the 1 BP, at 10? Is that my modified 10? Or when I would normally have 10") and I have had to explain to a lot of people how that worked.

This keeps the "spirit" of that flavour while making it very easy for a player to add body to their character if they so choose.

In the current rules the spirit of the flavor is also that elves can't use two handed swords, and hoblings can't be fighters, because of the "spirit" of the flavor. Why make another exception when the goal is to remove exceptions and unnecessary bloat?

 

[mythic]

Elves/Elf Types don't get an additional multiplier on damage for Archery, Wylderkyn don't pay extra for every spell they purchase. Why start that with Hearty?

But an Elven Fighter that purchases Archery (3XP) and Hearty (6XP) is still ahead of the Human Fighter that picks up the same skills (6XP and 5XP) by 2 XP. Which means that the Elven fighter can still pick up 2 more Hearty before there is a negative impact for skill cost vs. the Human (or other regular race). So if the Elf decides to stop at that point, they still have 15 more body than they otherwise would. But again, that is also spending more points in something that does not help a fighter out with costs towards more fighting skills (like slay etc.)

Also, remember that you can only purchase 1 level of Hearty per character level. A fighter is better off purchasing max Wear Extra Armour (which has no level limit) that counts towards their Fighter skills. Again it will be a personal choice.

 

[Draven]

But an Elven Fighter that purchases Archery (3XP) and Hearty (6XP) is still ahead of the Human Fighter that picks up the same skills (6XP and 5XP) by 2 XP. Which means that the Elven fighter can still pick up 2 more Hearty before there is a negative impact for skill cost vs. the Human (or other regular race). So if the Elf decides to stop at that point, they still have 15 more body than they otherwise would. But again, that is also spending more points in something that does not help a fighter out with costs towards more fighting skills (like slay etc.)

Also, remember that you can only purchase 1 level of Hearty per character level. A fighter is better off purchasing max Wear Extra Armour (which has no level limit) that counts towards their Fighter skills. Again it will be a personal choice.

I'm sure that Elven Fighter cares about that build savings once he's hit 20th level, Cory.

 

[Saephis]

But an Elven Fighter that purchases Archery (3XP) and Hearty (6XP) is still ahead of the Human Fighter that picks up the same skills (6XP and 5XP) by 2 XP. Which means that the Elven fighter can still pick up 2 more Hearty before there is a negative impact for skill cost vs. the Human (or other regular race). So if the Elf decides to stop at that point, they still have 15 more body than they otherwise would. But again, that is also spending more points in something that does not help a fighter out with costs towards more fighting skills (like slay etc.)

Also, remember that you can only purchase 1 level of Hearty per character level. A fighter is better off purchasing max Wear Extra Armour (which has no level limit) that counts towards their Fighter skills. Again it will be a personal choice.

This isn't an equitable comparison, you're comparing single purchase skills (archery) against multiple purchase skills (hearty), as noted initially. Likewise, comparing build expenditures at relatively low levels isn't equitable, given that there's no technical cap of level -- and given that those "lost" points of XP at low level are so much more valuable, given there's fewer available, you're again penalizing newer players, which sums up to just bad customer service and player experience.

Could a player absorb 5-10 extra XP loss at level 30 because a rule went in saying that Hearty wasn't "Elfy", given they're "frail"? Probably. Could a player absorb the same at level 7-10 (Where they'll need that body the most)? Sure, but at the cost of other skills that make them feel more valued. Again, bad player experience.

 

[mikestrauss]

No, it's not. There are a number of posts from people of authority who have stated that all racial penalties/advantages are purely for flavor and NOT for balance.

I challenge you to link to one of those quotes. I have seen plenty of owners chime in that racial advantages/penalties are not purely balance and that flavor is also a factor (sometimes a strong factor), but I have never seen one claim that balance is completely ignored.

-MS

 

[mythic]

I'm sure that Elven Fighter cares about that build savings once he's hit 20th level, Cory.

If they are planning to spend the XP on Hearty that much, well, then they would be at a net loss of 17 build (for the Elf example). But if they are dumping 120/215 points into just Hearty, well, that is the build they apparently wanted. It does not help them with any fighter skill prerequisites.

Taking these numbers into a conversation to me, is a bit absurd. I highly doubt any PC is planning to spend over 50% of their build on a single skill like this. I may be wrong, but I really cannot see anyone doing so. Is there anyone in any playtest that has done this?

 

[mikestrauss]

Some races (many at this point) have a feature that reduces the cost by 1 of a specific skill that can be bought multiple times. Hearty is the same thing for sturdy races. Heck, since you don't object to those other racial features, I could fix this whole debate with one change.

I could increase the cost of Hearty by 1 across the board. Then all sturdy races could get a -2 discount on the skill and all non-sturdy/non-frail races could get a -1 discount across the board. Exact same result, but now nobody has a penalty.

-MS

 

[Octal]

Related to this.

Should fighters get more body by default? basically for free.

There is a push to get celestial casters to pay for wands for that same reason.

Should hearty be REALLY cheap for fighters and just make everyone have the same base body if they don't buy it?

 

[Saephis]

Taking these numbers into a conversation to me, is a bit absurd. I highly doubt any PC is planning to spend over 50% of their build on a single skill like this. I may be wrong, but I really cannot see anyone doing so. Is there anyone in any playtest that has done this?

I doubt it, considering the Fighter being so thoroughly prone to takeout abilities. But that's a topic for another thread.

I could increase the cost of Hearty by 1 across the board. Then all sturdy races could get a -2 discount on the skill and all non-sturdy/non-frail races could get a -1 discount across the board. Exact same result, but now nobody has a penalty.

That isn't a solution, that's just reworking rules to favor your opinion. Please stay on topic of why Frail / Sturdy is necessary and helpful to players.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

A fighter is better off purchasing max Wear Extra Armour (which has no level limit) that counts towards their Fighter skills. Again it will be a personal choice.

Wear Extra Armor is almost never purchased in the current system. Even with the changes to how armor phys rep calculation works I doubt a majority of players will stock up on a skill that trades 1 HP be it armor or body for 1 build.

Both these skills are pretty terrible, having a race be frail just makes it so that it is extra terrible.