[.11] Celestial Adverse Races [POLL]

[Banradi]

A common recurring topic/argument lately about making Celestial magic stronger seems to revolve around the fact that it makes the racial aversion that Biata and Oathsworns have even more crippling.

Creating a single thread for this discussion. If there are any options you think I've missed, please let me know.

 

[Ardos]

As a selunari player, I recognize that I shouldn't have my point weighed above a biata or oathsworn player, but removing racial requirements and changing skills did literally nothing to my roleplay and I would assume doing the same to those would probably result in the same sans the fact that they weren't FORCED to do it if they wanted to. I have had several conversations to this point to other players who dropped to human after that change, but again that might not be true in an oathsworn or biata player so I would love to hear their opinion.

 

[Bruvah M.]

It seems to me, that the problem lies specifically in how Biata or Oathsworn either...

-Don’t have the ability to use magic and the four elemental damage types, and thus are occasionally rendered useless against various monsters

OR

- Lack enough benefits to outright makeup for their inability to access celestial magic.


A plausible solution to the carrier issue is to make some sort of exception regarding Foundation Blow. Then Biata and Oathsworn aren’t locked out of ways to address creatures that are only susceptible to magic/four elements.

I honestly believe, that I don’t know enough about the impact that being denied celestial abilities causes to have an informed solution for it.

 

[Melimir]

Poll lacks the simplest way to fix this. That's a remove biata and oathsworn option.

 

[Accleates]

I would like to keep the biata restriction in place. I do not care that I cannot use celestial magic. That is the price I paid for the race and I am fine with that. I understand that I am giving up a lot of utility and power by not having access to celestial magic. I understand that this means I won't be able to do certain things everyone else can. The aversion to celestial magic is the cornerstone of the race and I would be sad to see it lost simply because everyone has to be able to do everything.

 

[Banradi]

Lots of great comments! A few follow up questions/comments to the above:

- Lack enough benefits to outright makeup for their inability to access celestial magic.

I know you also mentioned that you feel you lack enough knowledge, but if you could choose a benefit (or change the aversion into something else), what would it be? Great ideas come from everyone!

Poll lacks the simplest way to fix this. That's a remove biata and oathsworn option.

This is a little vague. Why do you think Biata and Oathsworn should be removed as races, as opposed to just the aversion to Celestial Magic?

The aversion to celestial magic is the cornerstone of the race and I would be sad to see it lost simply because everyone has to be able to do everything.

I used to play a Gypsy before the changeover to Selunari, similar to @Ardos above, and I definitely felt the same way. That my 'gypsy curse' was the cornerstone to the race, and I wouldn't enjoy playing without it. Surprisingly enough, nothing really changed on my end. Also, if you still really value having your character be averse to Celestial magic, you wouldn't be prevented from doing that. Instead, it just wouldn't be a forced requirement for all biata, and instead just a roleplay choice.

 

[Accleates]

I understand the gypsy curse concept but I mean literally this aversion is the cornerstone of the race. It is what the bulk of the race packet is concerned with and every aspect of society is focused on keeping celestial magic in check and away from them. If you remove the aversion it fundamentally changes everything about their society, history, lore, and concepts. It would be better to scrap the race as a whole than remove this restriction.

 

[Ragnarok]

Barbarian player of about 5 years here.

In my opinion, celestial and earth magic are the most balanced they've ever been in .11. That being said Monster Slayer is better than Race Reaver the majority of the time in my opinion. This isn't a big issue in my opinion though. Aside from an Undead Slayer (which I'll admit is functionally an Earth Aura to my understanding) I dont imagine any of the slayers being so powerful that it renders an entire race obsolete. In my experience, NPCs and especially newer NPCs don't typically stat with armor in mind, though maybe this will change in 2.0?

All that aside Barbarians/Oathsworn and Biata aren't the only race with prohibited practices. Are we going to demand a change for MWEs/Sylvanborn because Commands are super good and its oppressive for them to not have access too them? What about High Ogres and Necromancy? The slippery slope fallacy aside, I'll admit that none of the other races are prohibited from an entire half of the magic system like Barbarians/Oathsworn and Biata. That's usually the thing that bugs me the most. There's a 50 - 50 shot of me being allowed to use an item. There are only two aspects and sometimes the cloak item is Celestial when it could have been Earth and now I can't use it. The most oppressive thing is when we find general rituals cast as Celestial that I cant use.

All that aside I've grown to truly love playing a Barbarian and it is truly a central part of my character. I have my opinions about Barbarians/Oathsworn in their current state as well as in the proposed changes but now isn't the time or place for it.

-Sid

 

[Draven]

I suspect natural armor will be more prevalent, if only to give the following more value:

1) Body carriers

2) Shatter

3) ....Necromancy.

 

[Inaryn]

All that aside Barbarians/Oathsworn and Biata aren't the only race with prohibited practices. Are we going to demand a change for MWEs/Sylvanborn because Commands are super good and its oppressive for them to not have access too them? What about High Ogres and Necromancy? The slippery slope fallacy aside, I'll admit that none of the other races are prohibited from an entire half of the magic system like Barbarians/Oathsworn and Biata.

This isn't a slippery slope... it's a false equivalence. There are other things you can memorize at every level with Command spells. Necromancy is, by the book, illegal. Celestial magic is almost an entirely different class in and of itself.

It's much more akin to the current restriction that Hoblings can't be Fighters.

Having played a Biata myself, it really is an entirely different beast to not just have Celestial access be an aversion, but an outright restriction.

Now, that said, I also know the history of the race and would never actually want to see the aversion changed. It's far too integral to the race. I would much rather see the restriction changed to either a mechanical disadvantage or, shoot, just double or triple for your pre-req (or even the spell slots!) Let the aversion be the roleplay reaction to that disadvantage, rather than more or less because the rules say so.

 

[Muir]

Honestly, I'd agree that Biata could use a rewrite (and that the mentalism rules could stand to be straight up removed from the game because they add little and we shouldn't be writing in rp-only rules for such narrow uses cases), but I don't think that's ever going to be on the table due to where the race comes from.

 

[Ardos]

I have my opinions about Barbarians/Oathsworn in their current state as well as in the proposed changes but now isn't the time or place for it.

I think a poll on what to do with these admittedly difficult to balance races is exactly the time to post your thoughts on it. I spend a fair amount of time with barbarian friends and guildmates and it is admittedly frustrating to watch items drop that would be perfect for them, that are general rituals, but were made as celestial instead. That said saying that inability to access half the game is a very different beast than inability to cast one limited school. I quite like the thought that was brought up in a different thread,

CASTING (or activating) moves the celestial magic through the minds of those that can’t handle it (and isn’t allowed). They can interact with celestial magic in other ways that are not detrimental to their well being.

It keeps the spirit of "can't use celestial magic", allows a player to commit at whatever level they want for personal role-play reasons, and removes the concepts argued for "all celestial stuff should be general to cater to 2 races who chose to have that limitation"

 

[mikestrauss]

I have a lot of thoughts on this, but for the sake of brevity, I will narrow them down to two for this post.

1) The problem in my opinion (at least for Biata) is that the aversion is an actual mechanical restriction. The only other race that is outright prohibited from purchasing a skill is Sarr and that is no longer true now that they are variants of Wylderkin. The only other parallel is Hoblings and they will be permitted to be Fighters in 2.0. Even a MWE can memorize a command spell if it is absolutely necessary. It is a violation of their moral code, but the possibility exists. Biata simply can't and that is mechanically problematic when only one race has such a restriction.

2) I think the aversion to celestial is a massive customer service issue. Ward / Wizard Lock is the spell that exists primarily to ensure that players (not characters) can comfortably enjoy their weekend (primarily by sleeping safely and storing their valuables safely). The spells are accessible at reasonably low levels for all players. Biata and Barbarians are restricted from taking advantage of this customer service spell. This forces those players to either store belongings unsafely and sleep unsafely, or to have to get access to a rare and powerful (and usually plot-restricted) ritual in order to enjoy the same customer service benefits that just about every other player enjoys. That is the kind of racial downside that new players don't fully understand when making decisions about race.

-MS

 

[DeSylvia]

Been playing a barbarian along side Ragnorak for almost 5 years now. I gotta say that as a new player coming in, I had absolutely no idea that the "inability" to use half of our games magic system would be so crippling. It's a constant state of hoping your guildmates lie to you in character so you can reap some kind of benefit. The issue I find is that most items I've encounterd in my chapter are celestial, especially the more powerful stuff and while I like my character, the racial bonuses are no where near equal to the disadvantage. The flip side is that it's not a mechanical inability like a vista, but if a barb decides to be the "outsider" and use celestial, other barbarians are essentially forced to pvp or disregard a major part of their race. The awkward part is that as my time within the game has increased so has the number of new barbarians using sky magic.

 

[Gandian Ravenscroft]

The only other race that is outright prohibited from purchasing a skill is Sarr and that is no longer true now that they are variants of Wylderkin. The only other parallel is Hoblings and they will be permitted to be Fighters in 2.0. Even a MWE can memorize a command spell if it is absolutely necessary. It is a violation of their moral code, but the possibility exists. Biata simply can't and that is mechanically problematic when only one race has such a restriction.

Reminder: Per the 1.3 rules, Dryads cannot use edged weapons (far worse than the Sarr's restrictions from blunts, given that edged weapons are physically superior in 99% of cases). Plus, dryads are required to avoid metal, and are mechanically restricted from using the best armor in the game. Relatedly though not really most importantly, I'm certain it holds true across most chapters that 95% of big plot/team-created super weapons are some form of edged weapon, meaning that dryads are never the ones to get to use them. On the 5% chance it's a blunt weapon, there's a 90% chance it's tied directly to some kind of blacksmithing/dwarf plotline and a dryad won't be getting involved in anyway due to the inevitable metal involved , a 5% chance it was made specifically for a dryad, and a 5% chance a hammer or mace rep was given out as treasure because it was deemed too clunky to keep in NPC camp any longer.

Even in .11, Dryads still are restricted from metal, preventing them from using metal-looking weapon/armor reps and are required to layer more armor to reach the same totals other folks can achieve super easily with metal. Note, I play a dryad and their mechanical disadvantages don't bug me - I'm just pointing out that while they might not be as imposing as the Biata restrictions, there are still actual mechanical and RP disadvantages built into other races.

 

[Draven]

I have a latex wood sword phys rep that I plan on introducing soon; in fact, it’s designed that way purely so I can lend it to my Dryad friends IG.

 

[Muir]

Hot take: racial restrictions that prevent players from engaging with entire rules subsystems are bad design.

 

[Tantarus]

I would argue that the differences in races is what makes them interesting, if we make them all the same RP wise. What really is the point?

Adversity builds character.

 

[Inaryn]

I would argue that the differences in races is what makes them interesting, if we make them all the same RP wise. What really is the point?

Adversity builds character.

There's a big difference between RP differences and mechanical differences.

For instance, it's nice that I get a discount on my alchemy with my Hobling, but I don't have a single racial purchased on her. She might as well be a human. I play her as a Hobling because that's what I want for her RP.
On the other hand, I'm actually looking forward to my Sarr becoming a Wilderkyn, because Archery/Thrown Weapon.

I did dearly love my biata... but I would never choose to play one again for anything other than the aesthetic.

 

[Accleates]

I understand that I am not the majority, but I don't think things need to be mechanically the same. I believe the mechanical differences and restrictions create just as much fun as the thematic differences because those mechanical restrictions feed into the thematic ones. I don't need to have access to everything in the game to enjoy it. The restrictions can be just as much fun as the having and if you pick a race that has a restriction then that is the kind of play you should expect. Taking away these restrictions and making them simply thematic choices takes all the punch out of them and I think that is bad for the play and for the representation of the race.