Balancing Biata

[DiodaGoat]

Is there any reason no efforts have been made to improve Biata? From discussing with people who play the race, they are the mechanically most difficult to play by being completely shut-off from Celestial magic. It seems many of the limitations of other races have been removed.

 

[Draven]

To be honest, with the removal of Monster Slayer, I don't see much of an issue. While they still have the issue with Wards, I've always felt that here, in the Pac NW, that wasn't a major issue, since most either make due with friends close by, traps, or Greater/Limited Earth Circles. Not being able to get the damage boost from Monster Slayer was an irritant to me that no longer exists, but that's just my opinion. I guess they can't do much against Prison outside of waiting 10 minutes, but, again, I think that's mostly a minor issue.

 

[Vryan]

To be honest, with the removal of Monster Slayer, I don't see much of an issue. While they still have the issue with Wards, I've always felt that here, in the Pac NW, that wasn't a major issue, since most either make due with friends close by, traps, or Greater/Limited Earth Circles. Not being able to get the damage boost from Monster Slayer was an irritant to me that no longer exists, but that's just my opinion. I guess they can't do much against Prison outside of waiting 10 minutes, but, again, I think that's mostly a minor issue.

While not being able to sleep behind a Ward is a big deterrent, I think the bigger one is not being able to buy Read Magic. Since Expanded Enchantment is going away, I expect battle magic scrolls to become much more useful than they currently are. Currently, Biata can supplement this restriction by getting items with activates. In 2.0, however, Biata being completely shut off from an entire category of production is much more of a problem than it is at current. I don't feel that the current set of racial bonuses make up for this detriment.

 

[mythic]

This boils down to PLAYER CHOICE. If you want to have all the "fun" of Celestial, don't play a Biata. If you want to have the RP and issues associated with the race, then play a Biata. Nothing is forcing a player to be a Biata. At the core of the race it would complete destroy years of PLOT and history associated with that race.

 

[norman b]

While not being able to sleep behind a Ward is a big deterrent, I think the bigger one is not being able to buy Read Magic. Since Expanded Enchantment is going away, I expect battle magic scrolls to become much more useful than they currently are. Currently, Biata can supplement this restriction by getting items with activates. In 2.0, however, Biata being completely shut off from an entire category of production is much more of a problem than it is at current. I don't feel that the current set of racial bonuses make up for this detriment.

If a player was running around with a bunch of celestial activatables as a Biata, I would shut down their mind powers. Its expressly within our right as plot to do so. It's one of the trade offs. They also don't get the drawbacks that Elves get.

 

[KyleSchmelz]

If a player was running around with a bunch of celestial activatables as a Biata, I would shut down their mind powers.

Right, but Biata are also losing Earth-based Expanded Enchantments. Other races who lose their times/day Sleep item can replicate that to some degree with scrolls, but Biata don't have that option. I'm not saying the rules need to do anything to balance that out necessarily, but they are losing a little more than most.

 

[norman b]

Right, but Biata are also losing Earth-based Expanded Enchantments. Other races who lose their times/day Sleep item can replicate that to some degree with scrolls, but Biata don't have that option. I'm not saying the rules need to do anything to balance that out necessarily, but they are losing a little more than most.

The modality is different. They have poison blade and/or Potion blade to accommodate the same effect. So they spend a little more into Alchemy or Potions. I see no problem with that.

 

[Vryan]

If a player was running around with a bunch of celestial activatables as a Biata, I would shut down their mind powers. Its expressly within our right as plot to do so. It's one of the trade offs. They also don't get the drawbacks that Elves get.

I suppose my post wasn't clear. I was not suggesting that Biata can circumvent their celestial restriction by using celestial activates. However, removing activates from the game prohibits non-casting Biata from utilizing what will become (in my opinion) the primary spell-replicating ability; scrolls. Yes, they will still have access to spell stores and potions, but both of those come with much larger drawbacks than scrolls do, and as such will not be as favorable.

I would like to point out that I fully support the removal of expanded enchantment. I just think that its removal impacts Biata far more than any other race, and as a result the race needs to be looked at for updating. I am also not necessarily suggesting that their celestial restriction be removed.

 

[norman b]

This was brought up earlier. Since Dwarves and Stone Elves get -1 to Blacksmithing and Create Scroll respectively, give Biata -1 Create Potion. This gives them something over the others.

Also, I don't know how potions have more drawbacks than scrolls besides not being able to throw their effects. They cost the same and are one shot only items. *shrug*

 

[Draven]

Right, but Biata are also losing Earth-based Expanded Enchantments. Other races who lose their times/day Sleep item can replicate that to some degree with scrolls, but Biata don't have that option. I'm not saying the rules need to do anything to balance that out necessarily, but they are losing a little more than most.

A Biata can throw Sleep/Silence/Paralysis/Alteration Alchemy, and manifest some options that Scrolls simply don't have. Sure, anyone can do that, but I disagree that Biata don't have options to replicate offensive production. They also don't suffer from a 10% reduction in Body.

 

[mythic]

You can drink a potion in the dark. Unless you are a 20 rank CS player, you cannot activate scrolls in the dark. ;-)

 

[Vryan]

This was brought up earlier. Since Dwarves and Stone Elves get -1 to Blacksmithing and Create Scroll respectively, give Biata -1 Create Potion. This gives them something over the others.

Also, I don't know how potions have more drawbacks than scrolls besides not being able to throw their effects. They cost the same and are one shot only items. *shrug*

I would support giving Biata -1 to potion making (and Dryads -1 to Alchemy and Hoblings -1 to Create Trap while we're at it).

My reasoning for scrolls being more favorable than potions is partially due to being able to throw the effect, and partially because they are much easier to manage than potions. Potions take up more space than a stack of scrolls do.

 

[Draven]

You can drink a potion in the dark. Unless you are a 20 rank CS player, you cannot activate scrolls in the dark. ;-)

I dunno. There's about a million Liquid Lights in Seattle.

 

[Vryan]

You can drink a potion in the dark. Unless you are a 20 rank CS player, you cannot activate scrolls in the dark. ;-)

Yes, but you must still be certain that the potion you are drinking is the correct one, which can be problematic unless you have a very structured potion sorting system on your person, which will take up a lot of space.

 

[mikestrauss]

Funny, I've always thought that Biata were overpowered in terms of penalties to benefits. I know the celestial penalty is supposed to be massive, but in my opinion it is primarily a quality of life penalty for the player (unable to sleep / safely store belongings behind a ward) more than anything else, in part because earth magic is (as of current rules, not playtest rules) pretty much just better than celestial magic.

That said, I don't think this discussion is actually appropriate to this forum. This forum is for discussing changes that were made, not changes that we want made.

-MS

 

[Draven]

That said, I don't think this discussion is actually appropriate to this forum. This forum is for discussing changes that were made, not changes that we want made.

-MS

Accurate. Poke your owner!

 

[Muir]

If a player was running around with a bunch of celestial activatables as a Biata, I would shut down their mind powers. Its expressly within our right as plot to do so. It's one of the trade offs. They also don't get the drawbacks that Elves get.

I always question if this is really a 'balance'. Mind powers are, per their nature, purely RP and not mechanical. So a biata carrying celestial stuff and sleeping in wards gets mechanical benefits (in that their racials are balanced against the drawback) without any meaningful mechanical penalty if all they stand to lose is their RP abilities.

 

[Draven]

I always question if this is really a 'balance'. Mind powers are, per their nature, purely RP and not mechanical. So a biata carrying celestial stuff and sleeping in wards gets mechanical benefits (in that their racials are balanced against the drawback) without any meaningful mechanical penalty if all they stand to lose is their RP abilities.

Prolonged refusal to appropriately play the race can result in other consequences at the discretion of the local chapter.

 

[ASFDan]

Alliance's stance has always been that you should choose your race based on its lore and RP, not its mechanics. In that light, balance isn't really necessary, in my opinion. We're not trying to achieve an even distribution of races, nor are we trying to entice players to play a given race. The idea here is that you play what you're going to play, and the system gives you a little kickback for your efforts above and beyond the (human) baseline. It's not a value for value system, and some races' advantages are going to be more appealing to certain players than they are to others, but at the end of the day there's very little incentive (and precious few resources) to try and trim everything up so it's nice and tidy and even.

 

[norman b]

They absolutely do say they try to balance it. Hence why elves only get resist command and half on archery, with a list of exclusions. It is because they only have to wear ear tips. This is why in 1.3 High Orcs, High Ogres, Dark Elves and Kin get halfway decent ones for their full face make up.