What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now?

R

RuneBrighteyes

Artisan
A little background.

I LOVE foam LARP. I have been playing nonstop for 21 years under Alliance (and its pre-split parent NERO). I have also played 7 other foam larp games during that time. As well as some non-foam stuff.

I LOVE foam LARP. I LOVE Alliance. That's why I still play.

I think our current ruleset is overall NOT good. I have played worse, but I have also played better (or seen parts of systems that are better). We keep saying that the rules were never designed for the game at the level it is currently at.

I read elegant suggestions to make the game better, and then the inevitable "it is too big a change" to make rears its ugly (and reasonable) head.

So dream with me dreamers, and lets talk about what in our current system we would keep if we could recreate the whole thing using all that we have learned about in the history of this game and from our own personal experience. Here's my list-

A non-hit location combat system with a HP structure. It's fun, fast, and as I view combat as an abstraction it is totally my cup of tea.

A combat system that has skills to it to give advantage to people who chose to take those skills/are higher level. I have played tap based/non- damage call systems. I am a pretty solid fighter. As a lvl 1 character (with a polearm) I was able to embarrass a lvl 14 Chosen Avatar of War (PC). I also worked with two friends to kill a apl 50+ monster (three polearms are good!).

A vancian spell casting system. Levels/Slots. Tried a mana system, but I prefer what we got.

Waylay. All day all the time.

Packet Archery. Real bows hit me in the junk.

An interesting/complex ritual system. Maybe not what we have, but something similar.

Our races. They are neat, and I like them.


So for me thats really it. I ask others to make a similar list. I am wondering if that after we reflect on what we actively LIKE about our system, and we do so not based on familiarity but on actually thinking about what works that it just might be time to create a system that WILL work for our wonderful, diverse, and level spanning game.

Just becasue we can wear our sweatclothes and not shave around our current ruleset does NOT mean that it is a healthy, positive relationship.

Have at it!

And for me thats pretty much it
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

I don't think a full overhaul all at once is the best approach. Changing small things a little at a time allows for trial and error and prevents a lot of wasted manhours when you discover something doesn't work like the math said it should. Also by changing one thing at a time could solve other problems indirectly.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

I understand that you feel that it is not time for a complete system overhaul. I respectfully disagree. The core assumptions of our character levelling system was based on a very different version of a much lower level game.

The purpose of this thread is for people to list what they would keep and why.

So what specific parts of our ruleset work for you and why? I am very much looking forward to the feedback this discussion will generate.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

Frankly, the only thing I think really works about our rule system is that we can generally all agree to meet up somewhere to use it. I consider that every chapter is running -some- form of LCO rules adjustment and has for years a pretty solid sign that something is awry. Unfortunately, the aspects of the game are so tightly interconnected that none of them can be truly considered a functional whole by themselves.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

I feel that the Alliance system has three things going for it right now.

First is the simplicity. Although I have seen simpler systems (One had a total of 7 pages of rules with 5 of them being spell descriptions), the Alliance does a pretty good job of making things 'deeper' while keeping it simple enough that it takes only a couple of minutes to teach a new player enough about the game that they can play well.

Second is cross-chapter playing. Besides NERO, there is no other LARP (not counting 'fight clubs' like Amtgard) out there that has more than a half dozen chapters out there that you can go from one game to another with the same character and experience different settings, play styles and characters.

Third is the ownership. Despite what I may say, Alliance LARP has a leadership that does a good job of listening to its playerbase and work towards evolving the game system. It takes a great deal of work to be able to add anything to an existing system without throwing things completely out of whack and thus far they've been doing an excellent job.

As for a complete overhaul of the game - I'm not sure such a thing would be possible at this time. Alliance has established itself for over 20 years with a system that basically works well - especially for trying to keep it consistent across many chapters. My suggestion would be to create a totally secondary set of rules and start another game system under the Alliance banner. It would allow a freedom of rule changes impossible with the current setup and be one big, RESET - removing all bloats and put in a system that would help safeguard against it as well as be a system that wasn't originally designed around level 15 being the highest level to be reached.

Of course current characters that players had spent thousands of dollars on wouldn't be able to play in it - but with the national infrastructure in place that Alliance has, IMO it would be a venture worth looking at.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

The idea of a separate game as sort of a Beta test for new rules is not a bad idea. In fact it is one that I like very much. This would allow for full scale testing of new rules before they are put into action without disrupting current gameplay.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

Wraith said:
Frankly, the only thing I think really works about our rule system is that we can generally all agree to meet up somewhere to use it. I consider that every chapter is running -some- form of LCO rules adjustment and has for years a pretty solid sign that something is awry. Unfortunately, the aspects of the game are so tightly interconnected that none of them can be truly considered a functional whole by themselves.
Click to expand...

Can I ask what you mean by LCO rules adjustment? Or are you referring to the combat speed deal?

Stephen
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

I know that at the beginning of ASF games, there was a listen up when they discuss local carrier calls such as "Thunder", "Nightmare" and others.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

Personally, you can consider yourself lucky. Alliance didn't get or risk a legal whomping from NERO over their rules simply because the legal issues ended without any resolution one way or another.

If NERO had won (which I doubt woulda happened), Alliance would probably be in the same place ex-Ohio chapter is- generating a rules system from scratch. LAIRE did that back in the 90's when they split away precisely to avoid such an event from occurring.

The rules are good- they just never should have been pushed to the levels they have been.

And yes- like NERO, chapters do have local variants. It's just not as codified as it is at NERO chapters with "Playtests". Alliance chapters are closer siblings than NERO ones, but they're nowhere near identical twins.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

What I like? Humm let me think for a bit,

Chapters, chapters and more chapters. Don't like the way one is geared, go to a different one. Different flavor for different people. Not just all "vanilla".

The fact that in every chapter I played in I can NPC for free. Some times money is tight, some times you just want to go and hang for the day and not worry about things. My non Larping friends think, "oh you had a long weekend, how are you so tired". Some times Alliance can be a second job. NPCing releases that feeling.

Our Foam Combat. I can go out with the boys, swing all day and not need PT when I get back. I can use my skills that I have learned, go up against the next person and use em. I can go to anther chapter and show them too what I can do. I have played in the "silent" larps, thought there was an eerie silence to it.

Our ritual system. While there are some rits I feel are useless, the main point of them are great. Making the caster feel wanted and needed.

Our spell system with different levels doing different things. The only real thing I would change is the whole memorizing, cast on the fly FTW. Make those caters more powerful.

"Packet Archery. Real bows hit me in the junk" I have to agree with you 100% on this one. Real bows look so awesome. I remember Plax (I think) standing on top of the huge mound of snow at the Althol site, shooting from atop down. I was in awe. But the thought of, what if the foam comes out, there is no way my foam shield is stopping that. No thank you.

Sticking along with variety being the spice of life, the different classes and races with out restrictions. How can we be all that we can't be if I am restricted in playing the class and race that I want to play. What do you mean Ray is too tall to play a dwarf? Bah! Play away Ray, play away.

Page...Even some one that is hurt but still wants to truck on can keep on trucking (wow can't believe I used that in a sentence).

Last but not least for the time being, the great stress reliever that Larping is. At the end of the day, I get to hang out with my friends, play some make believe and let it all out. Come Monday (some times Tuesday) I'm me again.

I'll try and post some more when I get some time.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

RiddickDale said:
Wraith said:
Frankly, the only thing I think really works about our rule system is that we can generally all agree to meet up somewhere to use it. I consider that every chapter is running -some- form of LCO rules adjustment and has for years a pretty solid sign that something is awry. Unfortunately, the aspects of the game are so tightly interconnected that none of them can be truly considered a functional whole by themselves.
Click to expand...

Can I ask what you mean by LCO rules adjustment? Or are you referring to the combat speed deal?

Stephen
Click to expand...

Craftsman skills having in-game effects. Transforms. Voice-Radius and other nonstandard effects. LCO magic items and other methods of circumventing treasure policy.

None of these are a -bad- thing, but they are not all of us using the the rules as written, which we constantly harp on as a good point.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

This skill is used to add flavor to your character. It cannot be used to give a character any extra power in-game nor does it guarantee any information from the Plot Committee, although the Plot Committee may take it into consideration when distributing information or plotlines. For instance, if you have Craftsman: Sailor and a module involves capturing a boat from pirates, your skill could come in handy.
Click to expand...

ARB, p 58, first column

I like that I can take Craftsman: Astrologer or Craftsman: Butcher, or baker, or candlestick maker, and get applicable knowledge for a mod. At one game we were given a description of the location and asked if anyone had craftsman skills that had to do with the stars. I do, so I was given an extra detail. It wasn't game changing, but it made sense that it was something my character would have noticed. Made that build feel better spent. It can't agree with a chapter letting someone have an extra prof or dodge or rit ranks based on craftsman skills, but little details here and there don't hurt, IMO.

Anyway:

I like foam larp. I like that I can go toe-to-toe with someone physically stronger, but it comes down to reflexes and timing. I don't go home covered in bruises.

Packets, yay. Easy to make, easy to carry, they even keep my hands warm because I always work in the kitchen and they get toasty in my pouch. Occasionally someone gets a packet to the eye, but usually it's a safe delivery method. I can't really think of a cost-effective, easy method for improving that.

Our Rit system. The RP that can come of casting can be a whole lot of fun, and the new changes should make for interesting things. Certainly made me rethink my build expenditure.



This is the only system I've played, and I don't tabletop, or play video games, so my experience is a little limited... on the other hand, I've played >75 events in 7 chapters, so I think I have a pretty decent grasp of our rules system. I like it and don't see any significant "brokenness," that's why I keep coming back.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

i like our hp system vs. strike location system. if i were a really skilled fighter at lvl 1 and i just stomp the top lvl players in the game and take their stuff....thats not fun to me. in larp i feel like strike location is like cheat codes....fun for a little while but then gets boring quickly.

i like what we have for packet deliveries. i dont know if other games use a different system for magic/alchemy but they're projectiles...you should have to have aim. just because i can make fireballs shoot out of my hands doesnt mean i can hit any nimble target.

racial abilities, i like most of them. as an orc i feel like elves shouldnt be able to brush off fear with their abilities, stop dipping into our tough guy koolaid elves!!!
racial cons, im a big dumb orc....im happy that it costs double for me to learn smart people stuff.

i love unique magic items with wonky flaws.

that's i got to say about thaaaat...for now
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

First, Ray, thanks for starting this thread.

I could go on for hours about what I love about Alliance, but the topic is specific to what we love about the rules set. I'm going to preface this post by saying I am totally not a rules designer, nor are they the part of the game that I get excited about. That said, there are specific aspects that I think are awesome.

-The game, in its simplest form, can be easily disseminated to new players in a 10-minute training session. We can show people our hobby, and they can reasonably enjoy it and be a part of it, without having to fully understand the nuances of the full rules set.

-The breadth of opportunity for players to discover what works for them as individuals. I don't personally play the complex ritual game, but I love that it's there for those that do want that. Those that want to stick-jock and not think too much can do so. Those that want to consider every shade and nuance of how spells and rituals can chain together in powerful ways can do so. Those that want to craft amazing things and be appreciated for their talents can do so. Without belaboring the point, there's a little bit of something for everyone.

-The imperfection in the class system (likely not a popular stance on these forums). I don't believe every class should be balanced to individually take out powerful creatures or even be particularly effective on their own - to me, one of the best aspects of this game is that it is designed to encourage team play. A group of good friends is more powerful than any skill or bag full of magic items, and that's what first got me excited about Alliance and has kept me coming back all these years. I don't mind that some people are better in some situations (or even most) than others - it makes sense and just works for me.

-My mom is in the rulebook! I know, I know.... that's not part of the rules, but hey - I would feel remiss if I didn't give her a shout-out. :funny: :wub2: :p How awesome is it to share a really cool passion with a parent? SO awesome, in my world. Not many people get to do that.

-To agree with a few points made above: the HP system works for me; the Page system is a good concept; Artisans are wonderful for many reasons; packets are a great representation for spells/arrows/alchemy; boffers that don't hurt tremendously and are light enough for any player to successfully swing are phenomenal (I do NOT miss PVC bruises... catch me sometime, I'll tell you a story about how bruises from PVC boffer LARP can mess with a girl in "real life").

-High level players are powerful. They should be (and are) considerably more powerful than low level players. It just makes sense in a fantasy/heroic realm. I also firmly believe they should be targeted by all kinds of nasties, which might lead to anything from a hangnail to a Very Bad Day. That latter statement is not part of the rules, just a personal opinion.

-Flexibility. I know there are those that think every game should do things exactly the same, like we all went to McDonald's University and learned how to stack a perfect burger. I'm not one of them. I played first in the Midwest for a number of years, and then came to the East Coast. I still recognize all the games I've played as belonging to the same core rules set, but there are both cultural differences and of course some small LCO variations. I like it, because I don't personally believe any of our chapters are taking it too far. It adds flavor, differentiation, and allows for creativity on the part of local chapter owners and staffs that enhances the game on the local level.

-High fantasy/high magic is inherently built in. When I want to play somewhere low/no magic, I can go to another LARP. We have magic integrated into the foundation of our world, and I love it.

-Lack of religion. I don't think this really needs explanation.

-Transferability of characters. I'm ending on this, because while I could come up with more points that work if I continue to think about this, transferability is to me the most integral part of the system that pulls us together as an Alliance. Every person has a pet project rule that they think will fix X or Y problem, but at the end of the day the fact that we can transfer to other games around the country is what brings us together. It enables someone to transplant 100 miles, or 3000 miles, and still find a community and place where they can share their hobby and creative expression with others. It makes the game for me, without transferability the Alliance would not hold as much appeal for me as a player or staff member.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

1) The Polish
I really like how polished the game is. There is a wide variety of spells and effects that often seem redundant and accomplish the same goal, but it makes the game have a lot of flavor (even if it makes it somewhat complicated). I also really like the names of all the different skills. Eviscerate sounds so intimidating, as does Dragon's Breath.

2) The Classes
I really like the core classes and how there are hybrids of every combination (excluding Artisans, although it might be cool to have an Artisan Fighter hybrid). I also really like how the classes are all very balanced. There is no glaringly overpowered class , and it seems that there is a pretty close to even spread of classes across the board. Many players have secondary characters because they like to experience more than one class (some people also NPC for this), which brings me to..

3) The Races
I love how the game handles the different races. Having a very broad spectrum of races definitely keeps the game from getting stale. Each race having their own little quirks, advantages, and disadvantages is great and how it is handled is brilliant. I also really like how each chapter creates local cultures and traditions through race packets, so races from one chapter can be completely different than races from another chapter.

4) The Magic
I really like how magic is handled in our game. I much prefer a tier system of spells rather than spells from a mana pool, and I really like the wide variety of spells there are to choose from and how each school has their own unique flavor. Celestial casters don't just chuck damage, they can also build stuff with their magic like Prisons or Fortresses. Earth casters don't just heal the wounded, they can also buff allies and debuff enemies, as well as risking the very powerful Necromancy spells.

5) Rituals
Everything about the Ritual system I love.

6) Weapon Fighting
I like everything about the fighting system right now. I like all the different styles of combat and I really like the fighting skills that are accessible. I really like lightest touch system, and I really like the HP style of health instead of hit locations.

7) Real Armor
Nothing makes me feel like a badass more than going into a fight wearing real armor. It adds a lot to the game and really encourages some awesome costumes. Plus, I really like how it's a double edged sword. While wearing armor benefits you by giving you extra body and protection against carriers, it also slows you down and makes it harder to dodge spells and weapon swings. Also, rewarding players who make their costume completely in-period with bonus points is awesome.

8) The Weapons
Allowing both Boffers and Latex really appeals to me. It allows players to use what they like. I also am a huge fan of packet archery, like Ray. I only wish staff could be as useful of a style as it is in real life, but I completely understand why it can't be.

9) Crafting Skills
I like the thought of Artisans and Merchants a lot. I just wish there were more of them In-game. I'd rather support another player with my gold than NPC merchants or simply gobbying what I need (Although donating is still awesome and I would still do it).

10) Traps
Everything about Traps appeal to me. An eventual goal for my character is to have Ledgerdemain. It just makes me sad that it's so underused.

11) Unique Chapters
I like that chapters have the power to make their game as unique as they want, and allowing LCO plot effects only adds to that uniqueness.

12) Leveling
I like how gaining levels grows ever slower the higher up you go. I also like how much more powerful a 40th level character is than a 1st level character. The 40th level player earned the power that they have for their loyalty to the game, and it rewards players for their hard work with cool abilities. I also like the fact that players also get rewarded with experience for their characters for NPCing, and at no costs.

That's about all for now. I know I'll come up with more later.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

Gilwing said:
What I like? Humm let me think for a bit,

"Packet Archery. Real bows hit me in the junk" I have to agree with you 100% on this one. Real bows look so awesome. I remember Plax (I think) standing on top of the huge mound of snow at the Althol site, shooting from atop down. I was in awe. But the thought of, what if the foam comes out, there is no way my foam shield is stopping that. No thank you.
Click to expand...

6_low_speed_arrows.jpg


MCI-2400.jpg


Technology's come a long way since make-your-own arrows, since low-pull bows are de facto archery for European LARPs. No more worries about crappy jury-rigged stuff.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

a 20-25 pound pull bow goes for around $20-40 depending upon what and where you find it. The arrows themselves cost around $15 each. However, 'professional' LARP arrows are incredibly safe - even if the foam fails, the internals are made in such a way that injury is minimized:

larp-arrow-round-head-%5B2%5D-357-p.jpg


But with the Alliance system where maximum and repetitive damage output is required to bring down even the lowliest of opponents, actual arrows in this game are useless - unless every shot from one is considered an evicerate no matter what level of skill you have shooting it. Or allow one evicerate per day per Weapon Prof you have.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

We have a few good thing going.

Character transferability between chapters.

A good basis for a combat system. While the numbers may need a bit of tweaking the blocks are all there.

A good basis for a spell system. Same as above.

Deep rit system and getting deeper.

Highly customizable character building system. The fact that rouge guy has the option to buy profs if he wants to(all be it not to cost effective).

Now heres the thing while I think changing the game/ruleset can be a good thing, I also think we shouldn't change, add, or remove any thing till we fix every thing we already have.
 
Re: What about our ruleset is actually good for our game now

My thoughts:

1.)The rules are built to allow players to transfer from one game to another. This has allowed a multifaceted story to emerge from the various cultures of each game.

2.)The rules to create weapon reps have allowed for a high level of diversity in design, and innovation when new technology becomes available. The rules were left open enough to allow exploration but provide clear guidelines for safety.

3.) Verbal calls based on <Delivery> + <Number> + <Effect> : This rule provides a strong story telling tool for plot (fighting an army of death elementals or casting your first magic storm literally "sounds" awe inspiring) and allows mechanics to be tweaked up and down easily. Celestial damage used to be base 4. The damage got increased without gutting the whole spell system.

Final thought:

4.) Changes to the rules so far have been deliberate changes towards a game that is at the same time: balanced between its systems, easy to pick up, and an expressive tool for a high fantasy story.

Cheers,
Mike D./Paolo
 
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