The Nature of Spirit

Mobius

Mobius

Squire
Chicago Staff
Marshal
A discussion at a recent Market Day in Andlar centered around Elementals and whether they resurrect. Certainly, if any of the sentient (talky) races lose their life-blood, their spirits escape their corporeal form and attempt to resurrect in an Earth Circle. However, the non-sentient races (animals, trees, mobile rocks, etc) don't seem to have spirits as whenever they die, they remain permanently dead - that is, no spirit leaves the body and tries to resurrect. This is, obviously, a huge simplification of the entire process and doesn't include the myriad addenda and exceptions, and no, I'm not suggesting the Earth doesn't have a Spirit, just that it's not the same as a sentient spirit.

That being said, what happens when Elementals die? Are they forced back to their original plane where they simply rematerialize? Are they unaffected by this process? Is their spirit weakened? Do they even have spirits? If they don't have a spirit, how can they mimic the affectations of the spirit - being able to reason, think, feel, etc - so well? Are they imbued with a different kind of "life-energy" which would be analagous, but unrecognizable? I don't think I've ever seen the permanently dead body of an Elemental on the Primal plane, has anyone seen such a thing on the outer planes?


Dramthin Hartsboon
Simple Keeper of the Tainted Grove
 
Goodness, Dramthin, well done! Is wonderful thing to think of! Do elementals really have spirits? Or are they spirits that merely materialize and rematerialize on the plains from whence they came? This promises to be fascinating! I did meet an elemental that seemed to be as sentient as they come. He call himself "The Student" but him name I call him is "Tabula Rasa". Blank Slate! He absorbs knowledge. He, like a sentient, seems to have purpose for him life or nonlife either way. He does not bleed. He is without sex. The element he is affiliated with I know not. Just thought I would throw him in as example.

~Marcena Cenkraea "The Dove" DagonGaddi
 
it is an interesting question.
One that I have never contemplated before.
Those that have theories and supporting evidence should bring it forth.

Shya
 
I think the easiest way to solve this is to go to the Elemental Plane of Death, kill some Elementals, and see what happens.

Also, while I appreciate scholastic enterprise, I think the question of whether or not elementals actually have a spirit is moot. They behave in such a fashion as they appear to have a spirit. If you need some form of rigorous testing to be able to examine the difference between a mortal-spirit and an elemental-spirit and a fae-spirit (cause they are weird ones too), then aren't they essentially the same thing?

If a thing came up to me behaving in such a fashion that it did not appear to be mindless and engaged in conversation, was able to reason things out, and had all of the other trappings of sentience, is that not enough?
 
My experience has shown that elementals are banished back to their own plane temporarily if you kill them on ours. At least the more intelligent ones. The lesser ones seem to all look and act alike. However, if you kill them on their own plane they seem to die permanently. I have found the same true for fey.

This, of course, does not mean this holds true for all fey or elementals. They may react differently in different lands.

I have already done as you've suggested Tieran. I have not seen those death elementals since.

Lord Find'rth T'Varian Ryujima
 
A fascinating topic for discussion.

All evidence that I have seen also indicates that elementals return forcibly to their own realm when they are defeated on the Prime Material Plane. This has been determined both in battlefield situations as well as confirmed by direct conversation with elementals.

I have no direct evidence of damage done to them on their home realm, though logic seems to indicate that they would either be permanently slain if defeated there or else suffer through resurrections and the weakening of their spirit in a manner similar to sentient beings on the Prime Material plane.

My findings on this topic are limited to Tar N'varia, and certain elemental planes may differ in what 'death' truly is. For example, reports from the Elemental Plane of Order on the 'death' of Arbiter Tendentious seem to indicate that he was not truly killed as we mortals would think of the term, but rather pulled apart and reformed into something new so as not to waste raw material. I suspect the Elemental Plane of Death has concept of death much more in line with how we mortals think of the term; and so on.

Then again, Tendentious was not necessarily slain in a matter involving swords and magic, tools that we would use, so it seems unknown if he would have ‘died’ in the more conventional term had he been pursued by adventurers to this plane and slain (a plan I had actually been investigating until it became moot…) but now I appear to be digressing...

I would be curious to see further testimonials of deirect experience in this matter, particularly from individuals outside of the Tar N'varian realm.

-Cedric Fruvous
Sorcerer of Stars
 
I would like to further confirm what Lord Find'rth and Cedric have stated. During a singularly long discussion that I had with a Ice Elemental while locked in a circle with it, a long story but the gist of it was that I had to convice it that it was a good idea to allow me to kill it, it confirmed that no matter how I dispatched it on my plane of existance it would just re-appear on its own plane. It later confirmed this by re-appearing in our towns tavern during dinner, just to rub it in.


In Service,
Squire Theodin Hammerfist, Sheriff of Lindall
 
Cedric,
The incident did take place in the Kindom of Caldaria. Just outside of Lindall to be more exact.

In Servic,
Squire Theodin Hammerfist, Sheriff of Lindall
 
I am intrigued at Lord Find'rth T'Varian Ryujima comment, or more at what it may have suggested. Do 'younger' elementals not have the capacity yet to be sentient? Do they become more 'intelligent' as they age, thus becoming closer to what one may consider a sentient being?

Just a thought to ponder, unfortunately I have no backing for this assumption.

May you find shelter from Winters' sweet embrace,
~Kevar Byrne, Member to the Order of the Earthen Fist
 
1) Do elementals have spirits?

- (A1) I think a good experiment for this would be to attempt a Spiritlink Spellcraft or Ritual on an elemental's item. If the item does in fact link to the elemental then we know that the elemental has a spirit. If the elemental with the spirit linked item dies and the item disappears when the elemental disolves we know that the elemental spirit is similar to ours.

- (A2) The second experiment would be to perform the above experiment in the native plane of the elemental. Then we can confirm whether or not elemental spirits function the same as, or similar to, our own.

However, I would only advocate these experiments on hostile elementals. I would never condone the experimental killing of friendly, innocent, or harmless elementals.

Regards,
Alavatar Peece
Red Wizard of the Crossroads
 
Elementals defeated on Prime Material plane do not, in my experience, dissipate in a manner similar to most sentient beings. They simply wink out of existence when their physical form takes too much punishment (and are deposited back to their home plane.)

I have personally witnessed the spirit linked artifact travel with Arbiter Tendentious each time he has been destroyed and though I cannot directly recall as clearly I believe that a flame elemental had an enchanted blade what was linked to his spirit as well.

Thus, at least in Tar N'varia (and I suspect most other locations on Fortannis) elementals do indeed have spirits. The question is how different are their spirits from ours to wit: are they slain permanently on their home plane after a single fatality or do they resurrect, and is there a means for mortals to acquire a similar invulnerability whilst traveling other planes of existence.

-Cedric Fruvous
 
I wonder if the elementals that "die" on their planes of origin aren't perhaps recycled back into lesser elementals. A demotion of sorts rather than a true death. Considering what we know of Arbiter Tendentious. Having been the host for a phenomenally potent order elemental, the feeling I received was that it wasn't so much death, as a demotion in status. Of course, the circumstances then were..unique to say the least.

Lord Aaeun Nimbus, Assistant Guildmaster of the Canning Wizard's Enclave, Lord of the Estate of Luminary
 
Another problem I'm running into, and this might be at the root of the question, is: If we look at the very concept of 'destroying' an elemental, it is ludicrous. How is a shambling pillar of flame 'killed' by sword-blows or eldritch energy? I can swing my sword through a campfire all day long, it will just keep burning.

However, if we take as writ that any elemental outside their plane is still tethered to their home plane and exist here in flux, many answers fall into place. When an elemental is attacked, we are introducing a portion of the Prime plane into their being; we are, in effect, substituting our plane for theirs - like displacing water in a bucket with a measure of sand. Once enough of the elemental has been 'displaced' with Primal matter, their hold on this plane is snapped and they are bounced back home. Similarly, if converse elemental energy (opposing elements, e.g. fire<-->water) is introduced, the displacement effect is magnified and their hold is disrupted that much more efficiently. On their home plane, the same principal applies (we are introducing alien, planar matter) but with the end result being dissolution instead of banishment. Unfortunately, this runs into difficulties for, as any old soldier will tell you, elementals cannot be affected by alchemy or some of the more devastating weapon attacks. So, if it was merely introduction of Primal matter, we could deal with elementals through gasses and the ever fatal sword-to-the-neck, but since we can't, within lies a quandary.

When this Tendentious was reconfigured, was it instantaneous or a matter of other elementals taking its essence and consciously reshaping it, similar to how ritual casters use components to reshape magics? As well, has anyone ever seen an elemental circle? or something similar?

The main reason I'm asking, I've been in my fair share of elemental wars and I'd hate to think that every elemental I've destroyed is a life snuffed without chance of resurrection. We know that mortal children often don't develop a spirit until hours or sometimes days after they are born. Are elementals similar but with a longer growth period? Are the sentient elementals, in effect, adults, and all the mindless automata a kind of larvae? That would certainly set my spirit at ease. Of course, This might all be me extending my concept of mortality onto a creature that is immortal in all the senses I would understand, similar to the Brood who do not live in any single body but exist as a collective mind - but, even so, it's been keeping up nights.


Dramthin Hartsboon
Simple Keeper of the Tainted Grove
 
Goodman Dramthin,

I would daresay that your average elemental is a more complicated than, say, a campfire or an icicle. That said the query you pose is a valid and intriguing one. It is a constant of the universe that enough brute violence can destroy nearly anything, certainly anything non-magical. However, it is still a far less efficient means when interacting with most elementals than simple applications of the properly selected eldritch spell.

However, at the base level, I think your theory is a good one. I am unsure if this can be truly tested, but it is certainly the best one I have seen to date. As to the Alchemy conundrum I think it is best explained by the fact that the moderate amount of toxic material contained in gas globes is a wholly insufficient amount of the Prime plane to affect them. If your theory is correct then I suspect that enough of a toxin inserted to an elemental would banish (or destroy, dependant on location) it in a similar means to sufficient arrows or sword thrusts, however it would likely have to be barrels material, and such an endeavor would be wildly inefficient and never applicable in a combat setting. Additionally, I do not believe that the toxin would ever effect them the way it does most mortal beings considering that such things affect the nervous systems and internal organs of living creatures and elementals seem to lack any such internal structure.

It is possible that you have a ‘different breed’ (so to speak) of elementals in your lands, but I have seen many elementals slain by immediate blows to specific locations and unusually powerful and well placed blows. Admittedly, I myself am no weapons master and my physically martial skills are most charitably described as abysmal, however I have been on many a battle field and have observed many elemental beings destroyed using such brutally effective techniques.

The reconfiguration of Tendentious was not witnessed by any mortal being (to the best of my knowledge) but rather was reported to us via a messenger of the Methodic Assembly (the council that governs the Order Elementals we have encountered) however the impression we were left with was that he had been dismantled to the most basic essence and rebuilt anew with none of his actual previous personality and being intact. While the messenger did not go into detail on the exact means of this exercise I was certianly left to believe that it was a ritual of some sort.

That said I cannot recall seeing circles of power erected on any of the elemental planes I have visited unless placed there by foreign beings. In point of fact, I witnessed the Lord of the Ice Elementals perform ritual level magic with but the barest of efforts while I was present on the Elemental Plane of Ice. The effects on my spirit were certainly those that would require formal magic if we wished to replicate them (and at least one aspect I daresay could not be replicated at all by any known magic) though he engaged in no magical technique that I recognized. I suspect, though have no physical proof obviously, that such an endeavor was easier (and likely even possible at all) because we were present on the Elemental Plane of Ice itself when it was performed. With this in mind, I suspect that the means to reshape Tendentious, while a ritual, would have included no steps or techniques that we would recognize.

As to the lesser elementals, those who appear to lack sentience, I do not believe that they are ‘elemental children’ in the same way that we would understand the term of ‘child.’ It is true that no known method of elemental reproduction is known (at least as far as I am aware) though it does not seem that it would resemble the method that we mortals use to reproduce.

I posit that these ‘lesser elementals’ would correlate simply to ‘lesser beings’ (as the term goes, though I would argue the veracity of such a claim) here on the Prime Material plane, likely comparable to trained dogs or beasts of burden. The correlation is not exact, but I believe that it is the best available given the information at hand.

These are fascinating questions indeed. Perhaps if I were able to locate a Planar Asylum scroll I might be able to find some time to visit one of the Elemental Planes on a mission to find such answers...

-Cedric Fruvous
Sorcerer of Stars
Guildmaster, Ashbury Sage’s Guild
 
We seem to be damaged by elementals just as easily as someone swinging a sword with an elemental aura on it. Therefore, I am not sure I agree with the theory that we damage elementals through planar displacement.

My hypothosis is that elementals exist as sentiant latent energy of their home plane. When one elemental is destroyed the energy is recycled back into the elemental plane, eventually forming another elemental again. Of course, this would then suggest that an elemental spirit is very different from our own.

Regards,
Alavatar Peece
Red Wizard of the Crossroads
 
Lord Fin'Darth probably covered this well enough as dependent on the kingdom in or through which one originally meets a given Elemental. I have encountered elementals with Spirit rituals upon them, I have been friends with a number of them who have died and returned as their usual selves, and yet I have also encountered far more elementals than I expect I have ever had chance to re-meet.

Given that the underlying nature of most non-high races (Human, Gypsy, High Ogre, Sarr, etc.) varies from region to region, I doubt any definitive answer could be found. The best general rule of thumb is that if you don't have a permanently-dead body to cart around, expect that they can come back (and even that has varying levels of accuracy, as noted by Spartacous, myself, Slice, Kiril, Yasmay, and a few more I am sure to have missed).

@~}~~
Sir Gregor
 
What is it indeed that elementals are made of? We, as beings in the Prime Material Plane, are constructed of physical matter (blood, flesh, and bone) and spirit (that which gives us sentience). Than perhaps elementals consist of the material of their home plane of existence imbued with spirit. Steel, spell and alchemy harm us, hacking through the outer layer of flesh and weakening the spirit. When we die, the material that was our bodies decomposes and goes back to the prime material that creates new life on our plane. In that way, we are not so different from the elementals whose essence is re-cycled into new life on their home planes. Perhaps if our own plane was as "pure" (for lack of a better word) as those of the Elements we would be able to tether our spirits to our home plane and rematerialize when killed in others. By the same note, we would die permanently when killed in this purified material plane, as elementals are believed to do in theirs, because the material of our beings would be so closely interwined with that around us. By the nature of matter, such a purified material plane could not exist, and I move simply in the realm of theory based upon the assumption that elementals have a spirit similar to our own.

As for Goodman Dramthin's theory, I find it intriguing, if his comparison of an elemental being to a campfire somewhat simple. The theory that elementals are tethered to their home plane has a great deal of merit. The concept of planar displacement would account for the counter-element effect, but I do not agree that steel or physical weapons would have the same effect were that part of the theory true. I would be most interested in discussing this further in person.

Apprentice Ren Suzume
Mages' Guild of Fairedale
 
I find I agree with Ren's assesment of the topic as to the nature of elementals and their planes. Perhapes I can help with why steel works on them as well. In the explaination of what elementals are made of you theorise that they are made of what their plane is, in essence, made of. A "flame" elemental would then be comprised of the same "flame" energy of its plane. A Biata, such as myself, is made of the things which make up our earth.

Now what happens when the flame elemental comes to the material plane, and the Biata goes to the plane of flame? The elemental takes the form that its energy type most commonly takes in our world; a being comprised of flame. The Biata is incinerated. Why? I suggest that in both cases the same thing is happening. In both cases the being in question takes on some of the properties of the plane it has traveled to. The flame elemental which was pure flame energy is forced to become fire, or otherwise gain substance. The Biata, on the other hand, has then to become flame energy. The difference is that what the Biata is made of can't make that transition, and is destroyed in the attempt.

By the same token, the flame elemental is subject to the same forces that other objects of our plane are subject to, ie: a sword. Why then does the elemental return home seemingly unharmed while the Biata must resurect? Again the difference in the nature of what comprises them would answer that. Perhapes the power to rift and take form here is inherent in the energy which makes up the elemental, and not the matter of the Biata. On the other hand, the Biata has the opertunity to resurect, while it would seem the elemental does not. Each has a spirit, and each can very well die. It is the difference in the bodies which we can physcaly see that changes how things seem to work. I am no were near as learned in these things as others, but based on what I have seen in combat and in reading much on the subject, this makes sense to me.
Until the Moon is no more,
Amaranthus Landcharmer
(please excuse spelling errors as it is 6:20am and I can't sleep)
 
As far as the material nature of an elemental: our world, our home is made up of eight primary elements. Four are the Foundation, which build the fabric of the world, and four are the Magistarium, which enable its movement. For each of these elements there exists a corresponding plane from which the raw power of these elements is drawn. The only beings native to these planes are elementals.
Elementals differ from we mortals in a number of ways. Like us, the consist of a body and a spirit, but unlike us, their bodies are composed entirely of a single element; hence the name. Further, as has been established by centuries of scholars far more learned than myself, elementals fall into definite, graduated categories which are consistent from element to element. In order these are Shard, Imp, Adept, Lord, Knight, and Overlord. These categories represent several things: the physical size of the elemental's manifestation, the resilience of the elementals form, the intelligence of the elemental, and the power the elemental wields in controlling its element. These increases are fairly consistent from category to category. For example, Shards possess only the most basic of intellects, and almost no reasoning skills. Imps reason at the level of most goblins, Adepts are as clever as your average adult mortal, Lords more so than Adepts, and Knights more intelligent still. The exception is Overlords, who are typically beings of extraordinary power, intelligence and scope.
These things are established and have been accepted amongst scholars for a long time. The rest of what follows are my own musings.
It should be noted that under normal circumstances, a mortal cannot simply step into an elemental plane: and a good thing too! These places are hostile to mortal life by their very nature; mortal life is composed of all the elements. Our bodies are solid, our blood flows like water, our breath is the air, and all throughout us there is the fire which keeps us warm. We can use reason and logic, we can be random and thoughtless, we live and we die. Without access to all of these things, we cannot survive. As the elemental planes are severely lacking in any element save their own, mortals cannot survive there without outside aide, such as a Planar Asylum.
Clearly, the reverse is not true. Elementals are obviously capable of crossing over, they clearly can survive in our home, and they occasionally do with alarming frequency. So what is different?
I think that elementals are possessed of spirit, as we are, but their spirits are of a different nature. This is reasonable, as their origin is also different. Elementals do not seem to be born, as we are. Instead, they simply come to be, spun out of the essence of their plane. Our spirits must hold together eight disparate elements for us to live, and thus are made differently than theirs. The task of their spirit is simple: hold together your element! Ours is far more complex. Consider that we have eight elements within us. Our spirit must regulate each element, and then must regulate the interactions of each element. It controls the water, and the water's interaction with earth, fire, air, chaos, order, life and death. FAR more complex.
I think this explains why elementals do not die on our plane, but are merely sent back to their own. Their spirits are so simple that the destruction of their bodies does not appreciably weaken them. Only within a Greater Earth Circle can our bodies be reformed, and the process requires great effort. On the plane of order, there is a limitless supply of the stuff of order for an order elemental to remake itself from; it is far easier a task.

-Eleghedhron
 
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