Alliance LARP: The Quest for Stuff

[elliotbay]

This is in response to a point several people have made on the Permanent Duration thread, but is not really related to permanent duration. It's about what it means to play a character in a LARP, and what people find fun about it.Here's my background: I've been playing Alliance for as long as it says in my signature. About half of that was as a PC, and less than that was on Plot. Maybe I just don't have the perspective of a veteran, and that's why I don't understand these things. On the other hand, maybe I don't have preconceived notions of what a gamer must value.

Different people enjoy different things about LARP, as we know. Nevertheless, there's a scenario that doesn't really make sense to me from any perspective, yet others on this forum seem to react like it's normal:

Aranea plays for some time, participating in the Rat Race for ever better Stuff. At some point, Aranea is comfortably wealthy, and doesn't feel like she needs to participate in that race anymore. Because she doesn't need to compete for treasure, she has more fun, because she can focus on plot, and on helping her friends or the Little People.

This scenario leaves a lot of questions for me.
(1) If Aranea's player has more fun when not competing for treasure, why did she do it in the first place? I know plenty of characters who don't particularly care about Stuff, and they seem to have a good enough time. My PC is one of them. I do not subscribe to the notion that in order to be an effective character, he has to be questing for a +1 sword.
(2) If, instead, Aranea does enjoy the aspect of game that involves accumulation of Stuff, why did she stop? It's often assumed to be a negative that someone is embroiled in the Rat Race for Stuff, but some people do enjoy that. For those people, though, I'm not sure why they need to stop. There is always more Stuff and more Power. You could always have more disarms, or more prisons. You could always have more ships and more caravans. You could always have more gold.
(3) If Aranea's player has a specific end goal in mind for Aranea, and she achieves it, why is she still playing her? If Aranea has grown all she needs to (be it in terms of raw power level, Stuff acquisition, political standing, or personality growth), it sounds like her story is finished, and it's time for a new character. To be clear, I know plenty of people who don't seem to have had an end goal in mind for their characters, but by the same token, I haven't seen a huge shift in how they've been played.

 

[phedre]

Here's a "Stuff Quandary" that I have wondered about for a couple years now.

Monsters aren't supposed to be statted with magic items in mind. Higher level pantherghasts are magic only to hit. If you send one out late night (when people are already in bed) to chase down the lone high ogre (who's a min-max fighter, no spells or items) in town who doesn't have a magic weapon of his own, aren't you upping the chances you're going to rez him because there's a piece of treasure he doesn't have that is required to kill that monster?

Higher level monsters have more offensive abilities that require some sort of defensive or *very* quick heal to survive against. Spellstrike Obliterate. 100 Elemental Body. Arcane Death. Eviscerate. Magic Prison. Without a defensive skill like dodge or parry, a spell like magic armor or elemental shield, or a ritual effect like a skill store, expanded enchant, spell parry, cloak or bane, most of us would get taken out in 5 hits or less. Except high-level rogues, because they rack up the dodges. For them, 7 or 8 hits.

It's expected that you'll have stuff as a higher level player, and the monsters are pre-written to support that.

If we weren't expected to accumulate stuff, why have a treasure policy in the first place?

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Monsters aren't supposed to be statted with magic items in mind. (...)
It's expected that you'll have stuff as a higher level player, and the monsters are pre-written to support that.

I don't follow. More constructively, I don't agree with the first one, and do agree with the second one. I don't write to specific stuff, but I should be able to assume that part of being 25th level means having average gear for a 25th level PC.

If we weren't expected to accumulate stuff, why have a treasure policy in the first place?

'Accumulate' is fine. But we don't have a functional economy, and Treasure Policy only addresses stuff coming in, we don't have a place for it to flow out. That means it just hangs out in a box somewhere. I bet most long-time players have a hundred or more gold in coin sitting in a box somewhere. There are probably a thousand or more gold just waiting to do something in my chapter alone, and we just don't have anywhere for them to go. There isn't anything to spend it on, so while monsters need to drop loot for people who are stuffquesting, the loot eventually ends up in people's boxes at home.

If Aranea's player has a specific end goal in mind for Aranea, and she achieves it, why is she still playing her? If Aranea has grown all she needs to (be it in terms of raw power level, Stuff acquisition, political standing, or personality growth), it sounds like her story is finished, and it's time for a new character. To be clear, I know plenty of people who don't seem to have had an end goal in mind for their characters, but by the same token, I haven't seen a huge shift in how they've been played.

Speaking from personal experience, you want to play a little after you've 'won,' so that you get to experience the 'reward' for 'winning.' For example, my fighter was involved in an 8 year or so campaign that took him from little fighter guy to literally saving the princess, slaying the dragon, and getting knighted. That was basically the end of the story, but you don't want to just quit when you've finally gotten the 'reward' (being knighted, in this case). So I played for another year or so, and then quit playing. It would have been really easy to keep going, but the story was basically done. I think that more people need to think about what they want to do once they've won, and accept the fact that that will mean moving on to a new PC, but you can't expect that they'll do it immediately.

 

[evi1r0n]

I really like this thread so far. I have been around for almost 3 years. Half of that I PCed Seattle the other I've been helping with plot. I have played OR consistently for almost 2 years. I rarely miss games. I don't have the view of a "seasoned veteran".

So I stat monsters with treasure in mind, sometimes. Smart monsters know what the jerks that keep rezzing them are carrying. They know that they have 4 golems in their ranks. They know Guy X is ridiculously hard to kill. When we did the whole new bestiary for the Valley of Ghosts campaign we created a series of monsters that could challenge all levels. We have had to do some minor tweaking here or there but the bad guys have been the same from day 1. I can't deny I took magic items into account when creating my portion of the monsters. Similar to what Matt said, when making a high level monster I assume that the high level characters that are going to fight it will be geared up.

As to Jimmy's questions:
1. I really can't answer that. It's an individual's decision as to how they play their characters. I don't do a lot of IG arguing for treasure. I just don't care that much. I play the character the way I designed him to be played and that's it.
Some people have fun having stuff, it's the getting it that's the annoying part. It has a lot to do with the (a least) small amount of competitiveness in us all. Look at all that guy's bells and whistle, he's practically unkillable. Man I wish I could be practically unkillable. Getting those bells and whistles is a pain in the *** but the end result is mighty appealing.

2. In you scenario the character shouldn't stop collecting things. There are plenty of characters out there now that have a ton of magic item resources and they are still collecting.

3. I really see Matt's point on this one. It's nice to enjoy the fruits of your labors. I have a few end game scenarios for my character. A few of them I would like to stick around and enjoy for a while. Honestly, some folks are a 1 PC type of player. They play until their character perms, I know a few people where that is their only end game scenario.

 

[Alavatar]

This scenario leaves a lot of questions for me.
(1) If Aranea's player has more fun when not competing for treasure, why did she do it in the first place? I know plenty of characters who don't particularly care about Stuff, and they seem to have a good enough time. My PC is one of them. I do not subscribe to the notion that in order to be an effective character, he has to be questing for a +1 sword.

I want to say I agree for the most part with Matt's answer to #3.

My personal answer, as a player of two characters, for #1 is:

I do not like stuffquesting. But, I feel like I need to stuffquest in order to be viable at the levels my characters are at. My 35+ level character needs stuff to make it so he (a) can get through the defenses of the things he is fighting without blowing half his spell tree on one monster, and (b) so he doesn't get taken out by that single Laugh Gas or a "12 Normal, Terminate" combo from a Bow that hits him (or similar concept). My 12th level character needs stuff so that he can (a) reliably damage anything he comes across, and (b) so that single Magic Death or Paralysis Gas Poison doesn't take me immediately out of the fight.

Once I get the stuff I feel I need to be viable at the level I am playing I stop stuffquesting. That's why after I completed my sword for my fighter (granted it is LCO made from GS expenditures) I stopped caring about Magic Items for that character and started giving things he found to those more in need. The same will go for my 35+ level character when he gets his 20 ritual permanent wand finished.

 

[elliotbay]

Monsters aren't supposed to be statted with magic items in mind.

I think the answer to your quandary is that this is wrong. What Ron said with respect to writing our monsters, but also, when I'm preparing a scaled mod for a group, I take into account things like amount of stuff I believe them to have, OOG skill level, and classes, as well as character levels. In general, players have more fun when they're challenged, so you put out things to challenge them.

With respect to playing after you've "won", I might be able to see the corner of that draw. Perhaps it'd be different if I actually did have an end condition in mind for my PC, other than "at some point, I'd like for his story to have an end". But, I know some people don't have an overarching goal in mind for their character, and want to just play their one character forever. That's fine for them, but I don't see why they would change in the middle.


My larger question is this: For people who enjoy Alliance as a Quest for Stuff and Power, is it common for that quest to end as several people have implied? It's not something I've personally seen.


But Seth, you seem to be saying that it's not people who enjoy stuffquesting that suddenly stop, but people who do not enjoy it, but feel like they need it to be competitive. I don't really understand this one as a factor of what you value in a game. I had almost 2 years of NPCing from 2 chapters going into my first PC, build-wise. On top of that, that PC is one who doesn't care about Stuff past the basics (armor, dagger, bow, arrows). I was pretty much the definition of someone who didn't have Stuff proportional to his level. Over time, though (I think), I came to be seen as a competent member of the community. Sure, I often fell to effects, but more often I ran out of reach when I was in danger. I ended up being very engaged with much of the plot, and felt like I could have some effect on things. I didn't value being powerful, but I did value being competent with the resources I did have. I feel like that's living proof that you don't have to stuffquest to be engaged.

 

[Alavatar]

But Seth, you seem to be saying that it's not people who enjoy stuffquesting that suddenly stop, but people who do not enjoy it, but feel like they need it to be competitive. I don't really understand this one as a factor of what you value in a game. I had almost 2 years of NPCing from 2 chapters going into my first PC, build-wise. On top of that, that PC is one who doesn't care about Stuff past the basics (armor, dagger, bow, arrows). I was pretty much the definition of someone who didn't have Stuff proportional to his level. Over time, though (I think), I came to be seen as a competent member of the community. Sure, I often fell to effects, but more often I ran out of reach when I was in danger. I ended up being very engaged with much of the plot, and felt like I could have some effect on things. I didn't value being powerful, but I did value being competent with the resources I did have. I feel like that's living proof that you don't have to stuffquest to be engaged.

True, you don't have to stuffquest in order to be a contributing member of a team. I "adventured" as Alavatar for about 8 years with basically no magic items. I stayed in the back for the most part, only throwing the occasional spell when either something got close or when I saw a friend in danger. Other than those two instances I rarely did anything because my survival resources were extremely limited. My main source of damage was my bow and chucking "3 Normal" was like a mosquito bite to most of the things I was helping fight against.

Got hit by an Arcane Death? I was in need of a Life spell.
Got hit be a Paralysis Gas Poison? I was bendy-posy'd for 10 minutes.
Got double tapped for 10 Normal? I was on the ground bleeding out.
"Voice Cause Mortal Wounds, Voice Death"? Spell Shield and dead.
Fighting something not affected by Command, using Claws, and rips from all Binding? I got 2 Prisons. Dang, it Resisted both. I guess I'll chuck a couple of Lightning Storms and Dragon's Breath into it. It's still standing? And there are 4 more of these things? Magic Storm! Dang, two came right at me swinging for Drain. Man, I'm going to just sit back and give Cure Lights to people that drop.

That was my first 8 years. I either stayed in the back for the most part or I was a drain on resources. Stuffquesting reduces the drain on resources; I just choose when I feel the stuffquesting has reduced the resources required enough for me to not feel like I need to stuffquest anymore.

 

[phedre]

Don't get me wrong. If SuperGolem is out killing a Liche's minions constantly and is noticeably a golem, subsequent minions should, by all means, have abilities geared to kill the golem. One of the best things I've ever seen at game was when a high level c-caster in a golem decided to go after a Prince of Elemental Chaos with Prisons. (Chaos elementals don't like those even a tiny bit.) The Prince showed up later on with shatters and destroys like woah. The c-caster's response to the subsequent "Oh my god, that was insane!"? "I totally bought a ticket on that ride. It's cool."

Knowing that the only stone elf in town is 3rd level but has his team's 15 rit sword and sending something (that doesn't know him from Bob the Farmer) out that's ACE 20? Not cool. A normally low-level group of people gets outfitted with items by the town to go sneak in to somewhere to take care of something, and suddenly the ACE of the mod is a 21 while the APL is 9? Still not cool. Those are the kinds of examples I mean by "not supposed to stat for treasure." If there's no IG knowledge of a character's additional ritual effects, the monster shouldn't be prepared for them. That same monster/villain goes, rezzes and wants revenge? Of course he's going to prepare himself and his comrades, given that his intelligence is appropriate for it. That's entirely reasonable.

Part of the Quest For Stuff problem is that treasure policy is getting really big, because it's based on the sum of total attending player levels, which is getting bigger with time. It's real-life cheaper for a chapter to put out that increase in treasure policy via magic items (read: cheap trinkets that can be engraved with a number) and production (bitty paper tags). (And gold and silver instead of copper and silver.) That means two things: players aren't investing in craftsman skills (where they could be spending coin back out of the IG economy) because it's easier to find production on monsters and has become the goal to do more damage to kill more monsters to get more of said production. It also means that the most valuable stuff going out is those engrave-able dollar store trinkets, and we as humans have this innate drive to want what's perceived as valuable.

Plot loses it's shiny appeal to stuff because it's easier to see big items existing sometimes than big plot. Don't get me wrong, sometimes the monetary value of things becomes FAR less important, like when you're watching an elf relive his wife's death in 3-d technicolor for about the 48,000th time. (Ron and Matt, I heart your chapter's NPCs for that by the way, being driven to tears watching that fight/spectacle was one of the highlights of my time as a player of this game.) I want to get involved in plot. I'm not good at finding it and often have bad luck stumbling into it by chance. I often end up playing the "what can I find/buy/make" game because my PC spent a long time selling food IG and has amassed the coin to begin doing it, and she's a ritualist so casting rits is her schtick.

Something has to happen to make treasure less a focal point of games, and plot more of it. There are some campaigns/chapters that I've played in the last couple years who have started doing just that. It's hard to continue, so I can only hope they are able to keep it up and help change the expectations of the players long-term from "Get Stuff" to "Engage in Plot."

 

[evi1r0n]

Yeah, we have been trying to pull a number of tricks to make crafting skills more popular. We have even been doing our best to realistically treasure the monsters (which has had mixed popularity). The game's economy really needs work. I have heard a number of great ideas to create a mid level economy but they would require additional rules and changes, which don't happen quickly.

 

[elliotbay]

Knowing that the only stone elf in town is 3rd level but has his team's 15 rit sword and sending something (that doesn't know him from Bob the Farmer) out that's ACE 20? Not cool. A normally low-level group of people gets outfitted with items by the town to go sneak in to somewhere to take care of something, and suddenly the ACE of the mod is a 21 while the APL is 9? Still not cool. Those are the kinds of examples I mean by "not supposed to stat for treasure." If there's no IG knowledge of a character's additional ritual effects, the monster shouldn't be prepared for them. That same monster/villain goes, rezzes and wants revenge? Of course he's going to prepare himself and his comrades, given that his intelligence is appropriate for it. That's entirely reasonable.

It seems like your complaints are based more around what works in a story, rather than what is fun to fight. All other things being equal, if a group of peeps walk into a situation that may involve fighting, I try to give them a good fight that they can win. "Good fight" takes into account the resources they have available. However, there are times when I will stat an encounter higher or lower because it makes sense for the story. (You don't need to win every encounter. Sometimes you run away.) None of this has anything to do with NPC character knowledge of the PCs' abilities. In large part, with the exception of spell memorization and rituals, you can't alter your build based on who, specifically, you're fighting. And, indeed, you mostly won't be fighting people who know specifically who you are and how to fight you. This applies equally to the skills you have and the items you carry.


With respect to Seth feeling squishy: Might that be a function of who you were fighting? That sounds like a problem any low-level character would have fighting things scaled for higher level ones. I'm not really sure how most of those change with the addition of magic items. Cloaks and Banes beyond what you can get through high magic (but you couldn't then), and extra spells. Is your point that everyone who was similar level to you had a bunch of defenses for because of their stuffquesting, and it was important to you to be among that crowd while adventuring?

 

[Lurin]

I take a slightly different view on this.

I don't think stop questing for stuff because they have obtained X amount, I think people develop as a player and get to the point where they start playing a 'deeper' game and often are mid 'big item' when that happens so they finish that off because it's what they were working on.

Many roleplaying games work similarly in my view and players go through stages (as a whole, your milage may very, yes you are special and this doesn't apply etc. etc.)

1st - People play to 'win'. They want to overcome the challenge, get the loot, take down the baddie and be the best. It's fairly rare to see a first time D+D player foregoing a particularly powerful ability because it doesn't fit thematically with their character.

- At this stage, loot is very important, Resurrecting is often seen as a majorly negatively event, generally these players will make deals with fae/dragons/big bad evil guys without caring about what it might do to the rest of the stage/world.

2nd - People start to empathise with their character/toon as a unique identity, Suddenly their High Ogre hates necromancy even though it's their out of game buddy/ride that's casting it.

- At this stage Loot is often very important, but you start seeing wants become more focused. Instead of needing/wanting everything people generally start building up stacks of defensives, or utility spell items, etc. based on their play style. Players are much more likely to turn down/jump a powerful npcing offering a deal, if it would go against their leanings.

3rd - People start focusing on the story, even if it's bad for the role they personally play.

- Loot might still be essential, not everyone plays a low power character, but in general people at this stage take set backs much better and are far less likely to complain about that Dragon take down fight that blew up two items (2 years of gathering lost, this is crap!). MI gathering might no longer be important but characters may start a group, aim at nobility, become a lowbie shepard etc.

I think once folks hit the stage three stage, that is where some of the most interesting character's come from. The fierce Sarr that thinks magic is for the weak, The skilled fighter will an all to human weakness for drink, The biata that actually goes to extreme lengths to avoid, or even undermine celestial magic. IE Characters that will be functionally less effective in our rules system, but can tell a great story.

 

[SkollWolfrun]

This is one of those things that will vary from character to character, player to player.

My wolf-kyn has a rough end goal and stuff-questing between here and there is not really in it.
My next character will be roughly a 180` and he will be questing for more.

 

[Alavatar]

With respect to Seth feeling squishy: Might that be a function of who you were fighting? That sounds like a problem any low-level character would have fighting things scaled for higher level ones. I'm not really sure how most of those change with the addition of magic items. Cloaks and Banes beyond what you can get through high magic (but you couldn't then), and extra spells. Is your point that everyone who was similar level to you had a bunch of defenses for because of their stuffquesting, and it was important to you to be among that crowd while adventuring?

It was important for me to be with the characters I was with because they were my in-game friends (that turned into out-of-game friends). They invited me to come with them and I was more than happy to join them.

It wasn't necessarily a question of being low level. It was a question of not dying / using more resources than are needed. Like I said above, my first 8 years was squishy. My 9th I was plot and 10th to present there was access to golems.

The monsters and challenges that we fought were statted for characters with Magic Items. Some of these monsters were straight from the database and others were customized a bit. Monsters that require Magic or Earth to be damaged, have multiple Resist <Effect> / Phase / Dodge abilities, have offensive abilities such as Arcane effects, not affected by certain effect groups or deliveries (which is common) or rips from Binding (thereby limiting what can be thrown at the monster), and Body bloat of 200+ per monster required resources to defeat. Granted, scrolls and potions could be used to supplement character abilities, but that can get expensive (just ask your local Alchemist how much gold they throw in a battle). Not having Magic Items meant draining group resources. Having Magic Items meant less resource drain.

This was before Wands and High Magic; those two things have helped significantly in alleviating the feelings of inadequacy for Celestial Casters (and Earth Casters with High Magic). But as a long time player I do have to admit that I still have a mentality similar to when I was 10th level.

Therefore, in order for me to reliably and sustainably feel like I can do more than feed Cure Light Wounds to the fallen (even at Level 35 to a degree when not in my golem ... granted 13 of my levels are invested in Formal) I feel that I need Magic Items to increase my survivability and potency, to not be a two-hit take down. I imagine Fighters feel it even more-so.

Disclaimer again: This is all my personal view and in no way intended to be an over-arching "players play this way".

 

[SkollWolfrun]

I imagine Fighters feel it even more-so.

From a low level view, yeah. Pin, Bind, Disarm are practically 'you are done' without good backup or Dodge, Evade, Cloak or some other thing.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

1&2) Because swag bagging is built into the game. The game is drawn from the table top experiences of the originators, which was based in Dungeons and Dragons, which has always had an enormous loot seeking component. No matter how much any individual person or group of people dislikes this, it's true. Stuff hunting is firmware, and it's very unlikely to get taken out without an enormous system overhaul, likely the biggest the Alliance brand has seen.

3) Because of this many people (myself included) feel compelled to meet at least a minimum threshold of "equippedness" to match their notion of level of power they want their character to be. Certainly there are outliers in both directions. The presence of outliers doesn't invalidate the principle. Most people I'm familiar with hit a certain threshold of build bought power and say "Now what? I'm kind of done." There are three responses: Stop playing altogether, start a new character/NPC for a while, keep playing and just focus on the story. Most of the people I started playing with are in number one or three right now; those still playing have stopped really caring about their build, items, etc. They're now interested in the story their characters became a part of a decade or more ago. Even if their personal goals have been met, the story is on going.

 

[elliotbay]

I feel that I need Magic Items to increase my survivability and potency, to not be a two-hit take down. I imagine Fighters feel it even more-so.

A slightly sideways question, then: Do you think there's something in the game that could change to both satisfy some peoples' desire to Quest for Stuff, but still allow you to feel effective while fighting the Bad Guys, without engaging in the hated activity yourself?

 

[Alavatar]

I feel that I need Magic Items to increase my survivability and potency, to not be a two-hit take down. I imagine Fighters feel it even more-so.

A slightly sideways question, then: Do you think there's something in the game that could change to both satisfy some peoples' desire to Quest for Stuff, but still allow you to feel effective while fighting the Bad Guys, without engaging in the hated activity yourself?

Things that immediately pop into my mind:

• Remove immunities from the game. Including from NPCs.
  • Replace immunities with innate Reduced/Changed Effectiveness.
  • Reduced/Changed effect from "Instant take-outs" may be a set amount of damage or changed to another effect or something.
• Change "No" abilities (Evade, Dodge, Parry, Riposte, Spell Shield, Poison Shield, Elemental Shield, Reflect Magic, Cloak, Bane, Phase, Resist, etc.) to "Reduced or Changed Effect" abilities.
• Reduce instant take-out effects to only "top tier" abilities (Prison, Death, Eviscerate, Terminate, Vertigo).
• Revise the rest of the existing instant take-out effects (Web, Paralysis, Confine, Sleep, Waylay, Terror, Drain/Purify, Nausea, ... I am sure I am missing some) to something else that is effective, but does not immediately take a player (PC or NPC) out of the fight.
• Make Claws affected by Disarm similar to a Spirit Link is affected.
• Make it against the rules for a Weapon/Claw Carrier effect to be one that includes "No Game Abilities" except for Prison and Death.
• Remove "Release" and make Binding a Reversible School, but make higher level "Remove Binding" effects affect lower level Binding (i.e. Remove Confine removes Pin, Bind, Repel, Web, Confine)

Edited to add Reversible Binding.

 

[Avaran]

I imagine Fighters feel it even more-so.

From a low level view, yeah. Pin, Bind, Disarm are practically 'you are done' without good backup or Dodge, Evade, Cloak or some other thing.

It's true for high level fighters as well. Without Magic Items, Fighters are still one or two-shot take-outs for any caster, and they still have to worry about those disarms, pins, and binds.

My experience has been very similar to Seth's my first 6 or 7 years playing. In fact, if you substituted the Prisons for Slays and then put my name next to it, there's very little I'd change; I played Field Medic many times as a "high level" character.

 

[evi1r0n]

I imagine Fighters feel it even more-so.

From a low level view, yeah. Pin, Bind, Disarm are practically 'you are done' without good backup or Dodge, Evade, Cloak or some other thing.

It's true for high level fighters as well. Without Magic Items, Fighters are still one or two-shot take-outs for any caster, and they still have to worry about those disarms, pins, and binds.

My experience has been very similar to Seth's my first 6 or 7 years playing. In fact, if you substituted the Prisons for Slays and then put my name next to it, there's very little I'd change; I played Field Medic many times as a "high level" character.

The flip side of this is a fighter can quickly overwhelm a caster at close range. Even with earth's bounty and arcane armor I am 4 shots for highbie fighters to drop (including magic armor), unless I start blowing magic item resources. Fighters can attack much faster than I can incant and throw. Throw in a bow and a PTD skill and I lose my ranged advantage and can be dropped in two hits (with magic armor). I am not saying it's a completely even playing field. I have (if memorized properly) 43 ways to ruin a fighter's day at range. Without magic items a fast casing mage can take out another mage in one or two spells.

What I am getting at is magic items are so ingrained in the culture of the game that every highbie needs to have them to fully participate in the thick of combat as it currently exists. I know there are exceptions to this and I am not saying that is a terrible thing.

 

[Avaran]

The flip side of this is a fighter can quickly overwhelm a caster at close range. Even with earth's bounty and arcane armor I am 4 shots for highbie fighters to drop (including magic armor), unless I start blowing magic item resources. Fighters can attack much faster than I can incant and throw. Throw in a bow and a PTD skill and I lose my ranged advantage and can be dropped in two hits (with magic armor). I am not saying it's a completely even playing field. I have (if memorized properly) 43 ways to ruin a fighter's day at range. Without magic items a fast casing mage can take out another mage in one or two spells.

What I am getting at is magic items are so ingrained in the culture of the game that every highbie needs to have them to fully participate in the thick of combat as it currently exists. I know there are exceptions to this and I am not saying that is a terrible thing.

You are, of course, completely correct, and that is the way the game was generally designed to work, and I don't have an issue with it. I think the big difference is that casters can make magic items for themselves, giving them a far greater degree of control over that aspect of the game than a Rogue or Fighter has. And think about it, even if a Fighter or Rogue found a scroll, they'd still have to take the word of a caster with regard to what it actually is (and cast to cast it), leaving them to find magic items (which they can't even identify) or have magic items given to them.

All of that leads to other topics and issues, so I'll stop there...