v1.3 Life/Death vs. 2.0 Life/Death/Corrupt

[Alavatar]

Hi folks!

Note, this discussion is meant to be different from the discussion about removing the school "Gift".

Here's the thing:

• In current 1.3 a character memorize Life and have both an offensive (Death) and restorative (Life) option that can be changed on the fly without penalty (since Death was not deemed "Necromancy").
• In 2.0, when a character memorizes Life they have access to the reverse Corrupt, but that is Necromancy so using it is not viable in many (most) situations. Instead, for that Earth Caster to have the same offensive capability they need to memorize a second spell for Death

In summary, an Earth Caster is now more constrained for memorization if they wish to be legally offensive. That seems unnecessarily (and potentially inadvertently) punishing to Earth casters, further separating their utility and usefulness from Celestial casters.

Was it intended to have this noted effect with the spell change?

Is this change open for discussion?

Should "Death" be more accessible to Earth casters?

 

[mikestrauss]

Honestly, for exactly the reasons you just described, I agree with this change. I think that Earth casters should be surrendering their healing potential any time they memorize an aggressive spell. And, if they aren't, that means they are committing necromancy.

In the current rules, Life/Death is the meaningful exception to an otherwise consistent trade-off. Sure, curse school spells are also reversible, but their opposite spell is so specific that it is pretty safe to say that they are almost never used. I approve of the fact that the one real exception to theme of Earth casters is now gone and that Life is now part of healing (which seems thematically appropriate to me).

I still think Earth casters are in the sweet spot when it comes to spell selection, able to memorize both healing spells and powerful take-out spells, which generally are more effective than celestial damage spells.

Also, I want to note that Earth casters did get a notable buff with the Death spell due to these rules. Since the spell is now in the curse school, it now affects undead, constructs, and other creatures that were previously immune to gift (and the writers of the new rules have confirmed this was intentional).

(I'd still prefer to see Death renamed to Doom, however)

-MS

 

[Draven]

I doubt those creatures will remain affected by Death.

I think the thematic idea is too ingrained into the community to allow Death to affect these creatures, and they'll be written to be immune to Death rather than immune to Gift.

I would be really surprised if it went any differently.

Additionally, I don't think that players will feel very free to memorize Death spells over Life spells, as Earth casters are often seen as....well, community resources rather than as players. I know the moment I get to enjoy my character's access to a now-rare Life spell, and actually deny someone that Life spell (because IG reasons) is the moment I'm going to ruin someone's weekend.

But, eh, I guess we'll see where it goes.

 

[mikestrauss]

By this logic, all these things should also be immune to Eviscerate and Terminate, since they can never get to -1 body. In fact, the intention was that Death would now work against all these monster types, barring specific monster immunities.

This quote was made by an owner in the old "Gift" thread. It is in response to a comment that death shouldn't work against undead, constructs, and elementals because they cease to exist at 0 body.

If the owners intend for it to work against these types of monsters (as this statement clearly indicates) and they are also in charge of the effort to rebuild the monster database, it is fair to assume that this increase in utility will become standardized and will be the norm.

-MS

 

[Draven]

This quote was made by an owner in the old "Gift" thread. It is in response to a comment that death shouldn't work against undead, constructs, and elementals because they cease to exist at 0 body.

If the owners intend for it to work against these types of monsters (as this statement clearly indicates) and they are also in charge of the effort to rebuild the monster database, it is fair to assume that this increase in utility will become standardized and will be the norm.

-MS

The thematics of Eviscerate and Terminate are more than just its mechanics.

The effect "Death" is not, for RP purposes, some kinda gigantic super fireball. It's not a lance of destructive force. It's....commanding your physical, organic metabolism to literally cease function.

Eviscerate and Terminates are basically uber versions of Slay/Assassinate. They're infinite damage, mechanically, but thematically, they're just super-shots. Heck, they don't even 1-shot BBGs, because they're really, IG-wise, conceived as highly-damaging physical attacks. That's why BBGs tend to reduce them to around 200 damage a shot (in my experience).

Death's not that. Death is thematically different. In D&D, there are many "death effects" that don't work on things like this, because the concept of a death effect is more than just damage. It's about the snuffing out of life force, the severance of your spirit from your body.

As a head of Plot, I'd feel weird if Death affected these types of creatures, and I'd probably LCO it that it wouldn't. That's just me, though, and I certainly can't speak for other Plot teams, or even people who'd consider being Plot.

 

[Sage of Legaia]

In summary, an Earth Caster is now more constrained for memorization if they wish to be legally offensive. That seems unnecessarily (and potentially inadvertently) punishing to Earth casters, further separating their utility and usefulness from Celestial casters.

Should "Death" be more accessible to Earth casters?

I've covered this in more depth elsewhere, but I feel that there should be a trade-off in power if you want to take Healing spells, and if offensive power is your go-to method of determining the usefulness of magic, then you should be a Celestial caster and leave Earth magic alone. The amount of overlap between the two schools of magic is large enough that unless you really want either Curses or Healing there's no reason not to just be a Celestial caster and call it a day.

With this view, the Death spell should absolutely be entirely independent of the Life spell; memorizing Life is making the conscious choice to prioritize healing with that spell slot, and memorizing Death is choosing to prioritize offensive ability with it. I feel like this choice should matter to you as a character (if not as a player), and that choice should be based on what sort of person your character is.

Additionally, I don't think that players will feel very free to memorize Death spells over Life spells, as Earth casters are often seen as....well, community resources rather than as players. I know the moment I get to enjoy my character's access to a now-rare Life spell, and actually deny someone that Life spell (because IG reasons) is the moment I'm going to ruin someone's weekend.

Depends on the reputation the player has cultivated as an Earth caster whether people would be disappointed they picked Death instead of Life, at least in my opinion; it takes quite a bit for brand-new players to reach 9th level spells, during which time they could most certainly build a reputation for being a specialist in something other than healing, and if that something happens to be Curses, then taking Death over Life is entirely appropriate and shouldn't be met with any sourness in or out of game.

I feel almost like "Earth casters are seen as heal-bots" is very much an in-chapter problem? The Calgary chapter doesn't seem to have this problem, like at all; we have at least 6 Earth casters who come to game regularly, most of whom are in the caster guild, and I think pretty much all of us are treated as much more than just a healer. I've mentioned this solution elsewhere, but if your chapter's Earth casters are seen as vending machines for healing, I highly recommend a few Resurrection Circle lessons.

 

[mikestrauss]

The thematics of Eviscerate and Terminate are more than just its mechanics.

As a head of Plot, I'd feel weird if Death affected these types of creatures, and I'd probably LCO it that it wouldn't. That's just me, though, and I certainly can't speak for other Plot teams, or even people who'd consider being Plot.

I feel like you missed the key phrase that the owner used in that statement: "In fact, the intention was that Death would now work against all these monster types, barring specific monster immunities."

The owners INTEND for Death to work against these monster types. That is an intentional mechanical change that is being added to this rule set. Your conceptual insistence that Death shouldn't work on them, purely for thematic reasons, is the reason I am urging a change of name from Death to Doom. Because I have just heard a Head of Plot say that they would significantly devalue a spell purely due to their own sense of thematic appropriateness. This isn't intended as an insult to you or your ability to do your job. It is just me trying to point out that the increased strength of Death is intentional in the new rules and that there exists a sentiment to change it purely based on the name of the spell (possibly you are the only with that sentiment, but I suspect that isn't true).

-MS

 

[Draven]

I feel like you missed the key phrase that the owner used in that statement: "In fact, the intention was that Death would now work against all these monster types, barring specific monster immunities."

The owners INTEND for Death to work against these monster types. That is an intentional mechanical change that is being added to this rule set. Your conceptual insistence that Death shouldn't work on them, purely for thematic reasons, is the reason I am urging a change of name from Death to Doom. Because I have just heard a Head of Plot say that they would significantly devalue a spell purely due to their own sense of thematic appropriateness. This isn't intended as an insult to you or your ability to do your job. It is just me trying to point out that the increased strength of Death is intentional in the new rules and that there exists a sentiment to change it purely based on the name of the spell (possibly you are the only with that sentiment, but I suspect that isn't true).

-MS

I may have worded something badly.

I am not a Head of Plot. I was talking in the hypothetical. I apologize for any confusion.

 

[mikestrauss]

I may have worded something badly.

I am not a Head of Plot. I was talking in the hypothetical. I apologize for any confusion.

That's cool. I read your post and then glanced at your signature and saw "Head of" and my mind filled in the blank with Plot, instead of Rules.

-MS

 

[MaxIrons]

I would be really surprised if it went any differently.

Prepare to be surprised. *evil plot laughter of comical levels*

 

[Durnic]

That is an interesting question. The one whereby if the spell was named DOOM* or whatever, would people's thematic ideas of the Death spell as it is in 1.3 go away?

*I feel like anything named DOOM needs to always have a lot of emphasis on it.

 

[ASFDan]

While most of the conversation regarding this specific change revolved around topics already covered elsewhere, the fact that a caster now had to make a specific choice between the two at memorization most certainly did enter the discussion prior to the vote, and is not simply an unintended side effect.

 

[Alavatar]

Thanks Dan.

 

[Myhkul]

As the oldest earth caster in Calgary (IG and OOG!) I felt a little different in the play test. With the growth in the damage level since we started the chapter and the loss of my damage aura weapon, I was no longer enough of a flanking threat to help out the line fighters and rogues. Having to give up a life that could save a companion is not a palatable choice for the way this character has defined himself. So using Death to prevent getting rolled was not an option. While healing was always my major focus and contribution, it now felt that I was effectively turning into a healing vending machine. Having characters be more one dimensional will help engender party and group play. But it may make the characters feel narrower and less fun to play. Or at least some of them may.

 

[mythic]

As I have stated before Mike, you keep choosing not to memorize Binding or Curses or EForce. You are painting yourself into the narrow corridor. Earth has a ton of tools, you just have to choose which ones to use. A Curse of Destruction will have you swinging 4s against an opponent. A Slow allows you to get away from a threat. Shatter will take out the weapons the creatures are hitting you with (barring claws). It's up to you to mix it up a bit.

 

[Myhkul]

As I have stated before Mike, you keep choosing not to memorize Binding or Curses or EForce. You are painting yourself into the narrow corridor. Earth has a ton of tools, you just have to choose which ones to use. A Curse of Destruction will have you swinging 4s against an opponent. A Slow allows you to get away from a threat. Shatter will take out the weapons the creatures are hitting you with (barring claws). It's up to you to mix it up a bit.

Totally agree. We have a ton of tools. Never have claimed any different. Just the "feel" of 2.0 was that I have a little fewer than I had before. But I agree still a lot. I thought the "feel" and the reduction was fair comment. In fact I was expecting it. If the goal if to encourage group play, the rules would almost have to reduce the breadth of individual character to do that. I think we really just don't hear each other clearly on this one. (smile)

 

[Draven]

Just the "feel" of 2.0 was that I have a little fewer than I had before.

In terms of sheer numerical value, heal-based Earth casters have more tools.

In terms of sheer numerical value, Necromancers (read as NPCs) have more tools.

Crowd-control based E-casters have less tools, but only because Life and Death have been separated. Approaching a PC Earth Caster means you're probably approaching someone who is less likely to be able to defend themselves in a fight than they were previously. That doesn't mean they're helpless (Binding/Command/Curses) are still a thing, but they're less likely to have Death now.

 

[Deadlands of Old]

I think for a lot of people who have played pure casters, with damage auras, monstrous slayers, etc. should probably consider going Templar if they want to keep the same sort of involvement in combat that they've enjoyed.

As long as scaling is done right, you should still feel as useful as before.

 

[mikestrauss]

In terms of sheer numerical value, heal-based Earth casters have more tools.

In terms of sheer numerical value, Necromancers (read as NPCs) have more tools.

Crowd-control based E-casters have less tools, but only because Life and Death have been separated. Approaching a PC Earth Caster means you're probably approaching someone who is less likely to be able to defend themselves in a fight than they were previously. That doesn't mean they're helpless (Binding/Command/Curses) are still a thing, but they're less likely to have Death now.

I'm going to slightly disagree with this statement, but for reasons that are a little bit caddy corner to this discussion.

Due to the changes in memorization rules, crowd-control earth casters have both greater flexibility in their tools and can have more total crowd control available than in previous rules, despite one crowd-control tool offering less flexibility. I think that is a valuable point to keep in mind in any of these discussions.

-MS

 

[Draven]

I'm going to slightly disagree with this statement, but for reasons that are a little bit caddy corner to this discussion.

Due to the changes in memorization rules, crowd-control earth casters have both greater flexibility in their tools and can have more total crowd control available than in previous rules, despite one crowd-control tool offering less flexibility. I think that is a valuable point to keep in mind in any of these discussions.

-MS

Current CC options:

1st - Disarm
2nd - Pin
3rd - Bind
4th - Shun
5th - Web
6th - Sleep
7th - Confine (Current Charm is too tempermental)
8th - Paralysis
9th- Life/Death

New

1st - Disarm, Slow (If your chapter has a fair amount of clawed monsters, Slow is the clear winner. Otherwise, I think Disarm is king).
2nd - Repel (Slow is probably a better CC option).
3rd - NewBind/Weakness
4th - Shun (NewBind is probably a better option, or at least there are less immunities against Binding).
5th - Silence, limited usefulness. Probably better off with a lower level spell.
6th - Sleep
7th - Confine/Charminate/Destruction
8th - Paralysis
9th - Death, no Life.

Eh. I mean, I guess? Binding is less powerful than it was, in the sense that full body binding isn't available until 7th now. Bind absorbed Pin, which is fine, I guess, except you're taking away that power from 2nd level slots. Slow's good, though, but it ain't no Pin. But I'd probably prep Bind over Shun, so...eh. Charm's change is pretty significant....I'm probably going to use those a lot.

So, I think there's pros and cons. Yeah, there's advantages, but there's things that are being lost, too. I think it's closer to a wash than an upgrade.

Edit: Ugh, I'm a terrible Earth caster. Forgot Curses. Added.