Roguey-types and options

[Rhys]

I've got a question on rogue work - more trying to get some brainstorming going for options than coming up with a proposal.

Hypothetical scenario: Saturday morning, you wake up, garb up, head to breakfast. You're all alone, no other PCs within easy reach, and you come across an appropriate NPC of your level. (As in, something that you can effect that isn't tailored to your weaknesses.) Assume that you've got all your skills/production and you're willing to use them.

Fighters are straightforward - either base damage swings, or pop your abilities.
Casters (including hybrids), again, fairly straightforward - cast your spells for the appropriate type (binding, direct damage, etc). I'll admit to questionable effectiveness in certain circumstances, but work with me on this.
Artisans - unload with your production items of doom.
Scouts - similar to fighters, though of less effectiveness (assuming equally split build between rogue skills and fighter skills).

It's the rogues that I'm a little uncertain about. I mean, they've got tremendous burst damage for their level - but in a one-on-one, they're kinda stuck swinging for base damage (which at the higher levels can seriously suck). I can see a really great rogue being able to get the occasional backstab in, but most NPCs are going to stay face-on in that situation. So, the options (offensively) seem to be items, alchemy, or ranged weapons (thrown/archery).

Just sanity checking to make sure that I'm not overlooking something. I understand that the ranged weapon changes (with backstab/assassinate/terminate) are pretty sexy and make that the method of choice (surprised I'm not seeing more hand-crossbows/braces of throwing daggers), but just wanted to make sure that I'm not missing something obvious.

 

[jpariury]

Buy him breakfast.

 

[phedre]

Rogueymeroguerton (who has 8+ evades and 4 dodges) can probably get away from Fightymcfightsalot (Swinging 15s with his 130 slays and eviscerates) because when the Fighty attacks the rogue, Roguey can call dodges and evades while taking off toward friends.

This assumes that both are about equally quick on their feet, and the rogue starts running.

Rhys, think Rock v. Wick. They both swing 20s (from different directions,) and while Wick runs faster, Rock has 210 slays. Wick just has to call dodges against the slays/eviscerates until he puts enough distance between himself and Rock, and evades against the 20s.

 

[Gandian Ravenscroft]

If I recall, rogues can actually purchase profs cheaper than a fighter can purchase backstabs (going off memory here, though, and I haven't read the skills chart for a while), which gives them an option, albeit a spendy one, to swing for more from all around. And with their backstab bonus to archery/thrown, not to mention alchemy etc., I think rogues are just fine the way they are. Everyone's got their time to shine, and for rogues, that time is when they're behind you, but they can augment that scenario as needed.

 

[mikestrauss]

There are a LOT of answers to this.

Answer #1: Carry thrown weapons. Each thrown weapon deals +1 damage per backstab. Essentially, you have profs.
Answer #2: Alchemy. It is cheap for a rogue and about half the monsters in the DB are 1 alchemy kills.
Answer #3: Play dead. Take a few hits on armor and fall. When the monster turns its back on you for other fun, unload an assassinate or a terminate.
Answer #4: Disarm, Shatter, Stun Limb. These skills are a rogue's best friend when they are solo. Facing doesn't matter and the skills are essentially a one-shot kill for any weapon using enemy.
Answer #5: Run! A scaled one on one fight is actually a pretty massive resource drain for just about any class. An "even" fight means you have a 50/50 chance of going down and is likely to use significant resources. Run somewhere safe and find people to make it an unfair fight.

-MS

 

[RiddickDale]

One on One straight up fights just aren't the rogues strength.

I would think this would be where Read Magic and a small Celestial pyramid would shine. If the singleton enemy is a fighter type with weapons, then a handful of 5 copper disarm scrolls will shut them down.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Rogues buy spells and fighter skills more cheaply than casters/fighters buy anything but their own stuff. If the rogue in question doesn't have alchemy, they may well have a celestial spell. It's 14 build instead of 20 (unless racial penalty), and web scrolls cost the same as laugh gasses, namely 25pp. Pin scrolls cost 10pp, and lend an awful lot of extra to that whole "rogue runs for friends" option.

Failing that, make sure they don't have a magic armor and then stun their leg.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

Yea, not every class is meant to be good at any scenario equally in this game. Rogues can be INSANE if you have a group of 4 or 5 reasonably fast rogues who work together to be a 'goon squad'. They can also spend build on other skills while getting to 'big' damage (10+) quite quickly. However face to face dueling not their strong point...

 

[Polare]

Since the Archery change, swap to your bow and start landing your Assassinates/Terminates after Stunning their leg. That's the way my rogue does it (no globes, no spells, no profs) and it works reasonably well. The Archery change was absolutely huge for rogues and made them useful in a corridor fight. Pretty sure that I land more Assassinates and Terminates via my bow than my blades, honestly.

 

[Deadlands of Old]

If I am face to face with my enemy I have already ****** up.

 

[Wraith]

Since the Archery change, swap to your bow and start landing your Assassinates/Terminates after Stunning their leg. That's the way my rogue does it (no globes, no spells, no profs) and it works reasonably well. The Archery change was absolutely huge for rogues and made them useful in a corridor fight. Pretty sure that I land more Assassinates and Terminates via my bow than my blades, honestly.

Exactly. My rogue is more effective with his crossbow and tactical use of vorpal coatings than a fighter of his build could hope to be.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

The question I have to ask, if someone finds themselves predominately using archery with their rogue, is why are they giving up the extra prof multiplier damage you get with a bow. How is a rogue with a bow more effective than a fighter could possibly hope to be?

My 'pure' archer character is a fighter and the extra damage certainly adds up when you have 6+ profs.

 

[Inaryn]

The question I have to ask, if someone finds themselves predominately using archery with their rogue, is why are they giving up the extra prof multiplier damage you get with a bow. How is a rogue with a bow more effective than a fighter could possibly hope to be?

My 'pure' archer character is a fighter and the extra damage certainly adds up when you have 6+ profs.

I'm of the opinion that the rogue and fighter damage for bows needs to be swapped.

 

[Wraith]

The question I have to ask, if someone finds themselves predominately using archery with their rogue, is why are they giving up the extra prof multiplier damage you get with a bow. How is a rogue with a bow more effective than a fighter could possibly hope to be?

My 'pure' archer character is a fighter and the extra damage certainly adds up when you have 6+ profs.

Because instead of those 6+ profs, for the same cost I have backstabs and all the attendant defensive per-day skills. Dodges and evades beat parries and ripostes any day.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

The question I have to ask, if someone finds themselves predominately using archery with their rogue, is why are they giving up the extra prof multiplier damage you get with a bow. How is a rogue with a bow more effective than a fighter could possibly hope to be?

My 'pure' archer character is a fighter and the extra damage certainly adds up when you have 6+ profs.

I'm of the opinion that the rogue and fighter damage for bows needs to be swapped.

That actually REALLY cool idea. Wow surprised I'd never heard of that before! It makes good sense too. Because realistically if you have a 'pure' archer character they are going to be more fast and agile, plus it gives a real incentive for them to keep arching vs just picking up a weapon and starting to swing.

It also makes sense from what I know of fantasy genre games.

 

[Rhys]

Rogueymeroguerton (who has 8+ evades and 4 dodges) can probably get away from Fightymcfightsalot (Swinging 15s with his 130 slays and eviscerates) because when the Fighty attacks the rogue, Roguey can call dodges and evades while taking off toward friends.

I know running is an option... was just looking to see if there was a better method in the stand-and-fight category other than "spend 10 hours whittling him down with 2s." I'm actually trying to make good on that whole "I'm *not* going to run this event, I'm *not* going to run this event," thing that I keep telling myself and then failing miserably at.

 

[Rhys]

Answer #3: Play dead. Take a few hits on armor and fall. When the monster turns its back on you for other fun, unload an assassinate or a terminate.
Answer #4: Disarm, Shatter, Stun Limb. These skills are a rogue's best friend when they are solo. Facing doesn't matter and the skills are essentially a one-shot kill for any weapon using enemy.

#3 works okay if you aren't dealing with something that's KBA, or intelligent enough to swing a few extra times "just to make sure you're down." But I'd forgotten about the PTDs, knew there was something I'd missed. Thanks.

 

[RiddickDale]

The question I have to ask, if someone finds themselves predominately using archery with their rogue, is why are they giving up the extra prof multiplier damage you get with a bow. How is a rogue with a bow more effective than a fighter could possibly hope to be?

My 'pure' archer character is a fighter and the extra damage certainly adds up when you have 6+ profs.

Because instead of those 6+ profs, for the same cost I have backstabs and all the attendant defensive per-day skills. Dodges and evades beat parries and ripostes any day.

+1.

I'd trade a handful of damage points for dodges and evades any day.

 

[Rhys]

One on One straight up fights just aren't the rogues strength.

Right. They aren't exactly the strength of any class other than fighter (and to a lesser amount templar and scout)... but everybody should have at least some capability to survive one that doesn't center on "Yeah, hope you can outrun the NPC, or shout loud enough to attract your friends." I get the whole thing about class balance not necessarily meaning that every class can function equally well in all situations... I just don't think that a generic situation like getting caught alone should result in an answer of "You're SOL." There's a difference between "shining in a particular situation" and "being able to get out of it alive."

I would think this would be where Read Magic and a small Celestial pyramid would shine. If the singleton enemy is a fighter type with weapons, then a handful of 5 copper disarm scrolls will shut them down.

Eh, I was looking for options that didn't involve them leaning too heavily towards shifting to a different classes skills (picking up profs, getting spells) - at that point, why not just go for scout or adept?

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Eh, I was looking for options that didn't involve them leaning too heavily towards shifting to a different classes skills (picking up profs, getting spells) - at that point, why not just go for scout or adept?

The PTDs, but alchemy is as much a rogue skill as it is any class's, and for most races a celestial 2nd level spell is cheaper than alchemy 3, build wise. You can build any class to be a damage monkey, but it comes with certain drawbacks. As a rogue, if you only take backstabs and assassinates, you're making the choice to be defensively lackluster. Same goes for fighters, actually. A fighter can beat people up all the day, but they are very vulnerable to spells and other packet attacks. Like alchemy, actually.