markusdark
Knight
..........
Hobling eyebrows?
- Thread starter James Trotta
- Start date
To Markusdark and Angrydurf,
I know and hear ya. Agree with you completely even. But what are your suggestions for change?
Personally, if a player came to me with chops that looked damn good that neither prostetic nor makeup could make it better I'd take it to the owner/ GM and try to get it passed. The same goes for Dwarves. If a player really had a beard he could belt and neither makeup nor a prostetic put under his beard to make it look fuller could make his character look better then I'd try the same.
Gypsies and BarBars are a little tougher I agree. And in some examples you have posted I do wish some players would just try harder. But in the end so long as they put forward the attempt and make up the rest with quality, unmistakable character I am not going to complain if that gypsy has black pants or that human wears a fur cloak to stay warm or if the BarBar ganks the human for the cloak.
--Chazz
I know and hear ya. Agree with you completely even. But what are your suggestions for change?
Personally, if a player came to me with chops that looked damn good that neither prostetic nor makeup could make it better I'd take it to the owner/ GM and try to get it passed. The same goes for Dwarves. If a player really had a beard he could belt and neither makeup nor a prostetic put under his beard to make it look fuller could make his character look better then I'd try the same.
Gypsies and BarBars are a little tougher I agree. And in some examples you have posted I do wish some players would just try harder. But in the end so long as they put forward the attempt and make up the rest with quality, unmistakable character I am not going to complain if that gypsy has black pants or that human wears a fur cloak to stay warm or if the BarBar ganks the human for the cloak.
--Chazz
Mike Ventrella
Duke
The bottom line is to trust your Plot Committee.
We have the dwarf rule to prevent guys with wimpy little beards from running around claiming to be dwarfs (it has happened before). We don't allow people to use make up for hobling sideburns or biata eyebrows or orc teeth, but I suppose if someone really had cool sideburns, feathery eyebrows or tusks a good Plot Committee would allow it.
The spirit of the rule is more important than the nit-picky, five page-long, "let me find every loophole and argue it out as long as I can" wording of the rule.
We have the dwarf rule to prevent guys with wimpy little beards from running around claiming to be dwarfs (it has happened before). We don't allow people to use make up for hobling sideburns or biata eyebrows or orc teeth, but I suppose if someone really had cool sideburns, feathery eyebrows or tusks a good Plot Committee would allow it.
The spirit of the rule is more important than the nit-picky, five page-long, "let me find every loophole and argue it out as long as I can" wording of the rule.
Hey I'm cool with that. If the plot comitee/owner can say OK your good for our chapter thats fine I personally expect some differences in whats acceptable from chapter to chapter but how its been presented to me is that its a mandate from the national organization that its not up to individual chapters to allow what they consider to be satisfactory representations of Race but that the book as writen takes precidence.
Mike Ventrella
Duke
Angrydurf said:
I think the book sets the basics, but examples that keep getting brought up here are a bit too nit-picky.
I hope no chapter would allow someone to play a dwarf who had a George Clooney-like beard. I think that's clearly not the intent of the rule. I hope that they would also ask anyone playing a dwarf who does have a beard to braid it in some way, as that is also clearly the intent of the rule.
It is also clearly the intent of the rules that biata and orcs and hoblings don't use make up for their racial characteristics, because then the "negatives" (which are meant to include the discomfort of the prostethics and such) are negligable. In the same way, a guy with a real beard playing a dwarf who doesn't go to the trouble of braiding it has really not taken any "negatives".
But there really aren't that many people who actually grow real sideburns for instance, so if someone came to my game with real sideburns wanting to play a hobling, I wouldn't make him shave them off and then paste on fake ones.
All of the rules are meant to be taken as they are intended and not in the "what if in the one in a thousand chance that this happens, then what?" scenario.
markusdark said:
Gypsy
markusdark said:
Human
markusdark said:
Human
markusdark said:
Human on the left, gypsy on the right
markusdark said:
Dragon
markusdark said:
Human
markusdark said:
Human
markusdark said:
I'm pretty sure the only gypsy in here is the girl in the back row, second person from the left.
markusdark said:
Guy on far right: human, person in background: probably gypsy
markusdark said:
Human
markusdark said:
gypsy
markusdark said:
barbarian
After going through, I think a lot fo these would be much more easily answered if the pictures were in color...
Too lax is also easy to achieve. I hope every chapter remembers that. And every player should remember what goes for one may not go for another. That kind of sucks but it is a reality. Or at least it will be until we all get on the same page and realize its not about our particular vision but somewhere in the middle of everyone elses.
For any chapter to outright turn away a player is silly and just plain bad business. They should at the least pat the player on the back and say, "nice try, next time we'd like you to do better and this is how..." Lets take the pic for the avatar of Angrydurf as for instance, and know that I mean nothing personal. I think you could easily add a beard under your existing one and provided the color came close to matching your three braids would combine to make one freaking amazing looking Dwarf. However if you came to logistics for your first time without one, I'd go to NPC camp and grab you one to show you what I mean. If you really didn't want to do it for whatever reason I hope that I'd at least inspire you to go out and try for next time. This is all based on a small picture though. I may meet you someday and say, "no d00d, my bad, you have a dwarf beard."
Its really all about the players intent. If they intend to get away with it just to get some racials then I am really unamused. Racial prostetics are also supposed to be somewhat a hinderance, though the value relations of those hinderances is a debate worth 20 pages itself. Supposedly, the worse you get for requirements = the cooler you get to be. Dwarves will get a sweaty neck and there has yet to be a prostetic designed to go in your mouth for use for 3 consecutive 16+ hour days.
To the OP, I believe it was answered that sideburns must now be full prostetic. This doesn't mean you shouldn't take that extra step and do something to your eyebrows to enhance the look. Trust me when I say there are players who go out of their way to notice and appreciate the details.
--Chazz
For any chapter to outright turn away a player is silly and just plain bad business. They should at the least pat the player on the back and say, "nice try, next time we'd like you to do better and this is how..." Lets take the pic for the avatar of Angrydurf as for instance, and know that I mean nothing personal. I think you could easily add a beard under your existing one and provided the color came close to matching your three braids would combine to make one freaking amazing looking Dwarf. However if you came to logistics for your first time without one, I'd go to NPC camp and grab you one to show you what I mean. If you really didn't want to do it for whatever reason I hope that I'd at least inspire you to go out and try for next time. This is all based on a small picture though. I may meet you someday and say, "no d00d, my bad, you have a dwarf beard."
Its really all about the players intent. If they intend to get away with it just to get some racials then I am really unamused. Racial prostetics are also supposed to be somewhat a hinderance, though the value relations of those hinderances is a debate worth 20 pages itself. Supposedly, the worse you get for requirements = the cooler you get to be. Dwarves will get a sweaty neck and there has yet to be a prostetic designed to go in your mouth for use for 3 consecutive 16+ hour days.
To the OP, I believe it was answered that sideburns must now be full prostetic. This doesn't mean you shouldn't take that extra step and do something to your eyebrows to enhance the look. Trust me when I say there are players who go out of their way to notice and appreciate the details.
--Chazz
markusdark
Knight
Chazz said:
Well my suggestion for change would be to include facial tattoos/makeup for the Gypsy and Barbarian and make sure that humans didn't have any. That would solve the whole thing in that group of 3. The others, meh, without really peevin' off the players of those races, there's not really an answer.
It was just rather weird at our event last weekend seeing someone who has a 2 inch long beard walking around with a fake one glued to his face (his beard is strangely curly and braiding wasn't possible - I watched people try). If allowing someone to wear or not wear something for a race is a chapter by chapter thing, that's great. I think in all the years of Angrydurf playing a dwarf, only twice did his 'non fake beard' come up and both times it was either for silly or spiteful reasons. I never once wondered if he was a dwarf or human. In fact, I only know one other person alive who looks more like an actual dwarf in real life.
To me it's about the roleplaying and not whether or not a player is suffering enough to allot him the ability to resist poison. I'd never expect my goatee to pass for a dwarf- although I did try putting an extension into it. It wasn't worth being a dwarf to wear it.
Oh, and for the record, if Teiran is right about the pictures, I was wrong on about 3/4 of them.
Honestly my solution would be you see what you see.
I just don't think it makes sense that characters are supposed to be racialy identifiable on sight when the racial Identifier isn't unique to the race.
Anecdotally I was bitching about this whole thing to a friend who doesn't play Alliance though does table top a bit and is certainly into fantasy. His first response to my mentioning that dwarves had to berecognizable was "Well I can see useing the beard since you can't really make a person shorter."
I informed him that dwarves are the same height/build/size as thier players and he was like well how the heck is that visually different than a human with a beard then? And I think he's right.
I don't think given that my character is a six foot dwarf that he actually looks destinct from a six foot bearded human in game. Why should he be? Sure it would be nice for the alchemists out there to know from the get go that alchemy might be ineffective, thats about it though.
As for the discomfort I would say that the idea of make-up as disadvantage is a bit silly frankly. Just compare stone, dark, mystic wood, and regular elves and you see that face paint nets you something between an RP ability and not haveing to wear horns to have break charm and Resist magic. Thats a really questionable take considering what several races get without makeup.
If racial ID is needed on sight bright facial markings for gypsies, tribal markings for barbarians, and crazy giant ears ala WoW for elves. Then everything is identifiable on sight.
All that said I'm all for the guidlines the book layed out as long as they are guidlines that each chapter can consider and enforce as fits thier game and players. I'm all for that. I don't like seeing dwarves with only goatees or whatever but a full beard that looks dwarven to the staff and most/all players I don't think is gonna ruin anyones weekend.
I just don't think it makes sense that characters are supposed to be racialy identifiable on sight when the racial Identifier isn't unique to the race.
Anecdotally I was bitching about this whole thing to a friend who doesn't play Alliance though does table top a bit and is certainly into fantasy. His first response to my mentioning that dwarves had to berecognizable was "Well I can see useing the beard since you can't really make a person shorter."
I informed him that dwarves are the same height/build/size as thier players and he was like well how the heck is that visually different than a human with a beard then? And I think he's right.
I don't think given that my character is a six foot dwarf that he actually looks destinct from a six foot bearded human in game. Why should he be? Sure it would be nice for the alchemists out there to know from the get go that alchemy might be ineffective, thats about it though.
As for the discomfort I would say that the idea of make-up as disadvantage is a bit silly frankly. Just compare stone, dark, mystic wood, and regular elves and you see that face paint nets you something between an RP ability and not haveing to wear horns to have break charm and Resist magic. Thats a really questionable take considering what several races get without makeup.
If racial ID is needed on sight bright facial markings for gypsies, tribal markings for barbarians, and crazy giant ears ala WoW for elves. Then everything is identifiable on sight.
All that said I'm all for the guidlines the book layed out as long as they are guidlines that each chapter can consider and enforce as fits thier game and players. I'm all for that. I don't like seeing dwarves with only goatees or whatever but a full beard that looks dwarven to the staff and most/all players I don't think is gonna ruin anyones weekend.
You two make some very valid points. Then you get to allowing roleplay to be enough. Although I agree with the concept, I want for more than that. I am sure AngryDurf is the most believeable Dwarf ever and I am not even being cynical when I say it. To me he will forever be more so if his beard were in fact past his belt line, not that many options exist beyond natural growth for that to ever happen.
Me thinks we are all getting way too hung up on 'unique identifiers' and 'what individual chapters can allow.' These are terms to try and help chapters to all get on this same Alliance wide page and standard I keep bringing up in my posts. The majority of the game has come together at various points and decreed that prostetics are to be used to help identify races. Considering that some games have all sorts of other restrictions includeing height, I as a person who likes to play dwarves himself, am very pleased this is not the case here. So now we as players have to find ways of playing with these restrictions. We can argue the fine lines of what is acceptable or we could take the time to find ways to make it more defineable and yet easier to play with. If anyone has suggestions of places for sideburns for instance I'd appreciate the heads up. I know some Hoblings that would too.
Ultimately, until some Alliance wide committee gets formed and flys around to double-check standards, the player base of a chapter will dictate what is acceptable. Those players will also have to know that the same will not fly in all chapters. Even if such a committee were to be formed the players would still ultimately decide what extremes the rule book places on us. To leave it based solely on roleplay though just feels like a small step away from the following:
"D00d, how can you call a Resist Magic? You have zero makeup on and I can't even tell if you have ears 'cause of that hat!"
"Well yeah, but isn't my roleplay intense?"
--Chazz
Me thinks we are all getting way too hung up on 'unique identifiers' and 'what individual chapters can allow.' These are terms to try and help chapters to all get on this same Alliance wide page and standard I keep bringing up in my posts. The majority of the game has come together at various points and decreed that prostetics are to be used to help identify races. Considering that some games have all sorts of other restrictions includeing height, I as a person who likes to play dwarves himself, am very pleased this is not the case here. So now we as players have to find ways of playing with these restrictions. We can argue the fine lines of what is acceptable or we could take the time to find ways to make it more defineable and yet easier to play with. If anyone has suggestions of places for sideburns for instance I'd appreciate the heads up. I know some Hoblings that would too.
Ultimately, until some Alliance wide committee gets formed and flys around to double-check standards, the player base of a chapter will dictate what is acceptable. Those players will also have to know that the same will not fly in all chapters. Even if such a committee were to be formed the players would still ultimately decide what extremes the rule book places on us. To leave it based solely on roleplay though just feels like a small step away from the following:
"D00d, how can you call a Resist Magic? You have zero makeup on and I can't even tell if you have ears 'cause of that hat!"
"Well yeah, but isn't my roleplay intense?"
--Chazz
Dreamingfurther
Baron
Chazz said:
The answer to this is. Obviously he was wearing a full bucket helm!
Although honestly I don't really think those are that smart to wear...*that last comment was made in jest*
Also, while I hope people don't take arguing the fine lines wrongly I do sort of enjoy reading these discussions because I feel like it just enriches my understanding and thoughts about the game. Good show I say.
markusdark
Knight
And I hope none of my comments have been misconstrued as "You ARC people don't know a thing about gaming!" ranting. I enjoy even heated discussions about LARPing in general and for me, it has always been about making the game more enjoyable for the players. Although the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few, Captian Kirk showed that the opposite can be just as dramatically exciting.
Angrydurf said:Yea an elf can cover thier ears but then how can you tell what race they are? After all race is supposed to be instantly recognizable on sight.
Heres a quick quiz I have tossed together
One of these characters is a gypsy which one?
1)
2)
3)
Are you suggesting that I wear colorful clothes? :lol:
markusdark
Knight
whorfin said:
We're suggesting your character does. As for the actual contest, if I wasn't in the chapter, I would have guessed wrong. And Sir Marcus would have kicked my arse.