Armor Representation Materials

Valdyr

Valdyr

Apprentice
I figured this would be an appropriate question to ask in the local forum since it seems to be a grey area open to the interpretation of local chapters.
I saw an earlier post where the question was asked if a poly plate armor set with a metal plate appearance would have the same armor value as what it modeled. The answer was given that you get the armor value for what the actual material is. To me it seems a little strange that everything we do in LARP is more or less pretend (i.e. makeup, foam weapons, arrow and spell packets, garb made using modern machinery) but in this one area it's not allowed to be a representation. Now, it's not my game and I don't make the rules, I totally get that and am fine playing if that's how it is, but is there any more clarification on this?

I ask because rather than acquire a new skillset, materials, and the needed tools for leatherworking, I would like to build a representation of leather armor using heavy PVC sheeting. I can build a more durable, better looking, lower maintenance armor set in my current situation with plastic than I could with leather, and it will look almost identical to the armor piece I'm designing it after.
I did see this in the rulebook:

2 points: Light Metallic Armor or Heavy
Non Metallic Armor. This level is awarded for
the following types of armor coverage: leather
10 oz. or heaver, a material with a minimum of
¼" wide metal studs 1" apart or less, a material
with at least 14 gauge metal rings spaced 1"
apart or less, chain mail, non metallic plate mail,
light metal scale mail, and light metal plate mail.
Failure to cover at least half of the Armor
Location in these materials results in only 1
point being awarded. Failure to cover at least
one third of the Armor Location results in no
points being awarded for that area. This level
of armor on the head provides protection from
Waylay 2.

According to the rulebook, you're allowed to use "non-metallic plate mail". That seems to leave the door open for alternative materials and in fact make a specific place for them as far as armor value.

Am I interpreting this correctly?
Would I be allowed to have "leather" plate armor made out of PVC and call it leather plate in game since it has the same armor value?

Thanks!
 
This is a totally non-official response from just another player, mind you...

My thinking about the armor rules in Alliance, and other LARPs of similar philosophy, is that by no means is a non-authentic representation of armor disallowed-- but players are certainly incentivized to use "real" armor made of authentic materials. This is where Quality Points in the armor system come into play.

You make a great point -- we encourage lightweight weapons made of materials found only in the space program, why don't we do the same for armor? I think it's a little of deliberate elitism in a way. For one, armor made of authentic materials is heavier and more cumbersome than space-age likenesses. Cool-looking armor, cool-sounding armor (because there is no substitute for the creak of leather or clank of platemail!), and heck, even the smell of real leather all contribute positively to the game atmosphere. The game wishes to encourage players to bring these items into play. Players who favor the real deal suffer weight and encumberance -- should we effectively "penalize" them for that choice by rewarding only on outward appearance? It's six of one, half-a-dozen of the other, really, but it comes down to a preference in philosophy of which to favor, I think.

The other thing that I consider is that LARPs are havens for crafters! By no means do we want to raise the bar so high that players are effectively required to acquire new skillsets, materials, and needed tools for armorsmithing -- I totally agree with you there. Nevertheless, many players will want to do so because it's fun! We like showing off what we make. This feeds back into both improving the game with bringing in items that are appealing to many senses, and it also helps create community. LARPers love to get together for craft days. We work on armor, making boffer weapons, costumes, banners, pounches -- heck, I'm even knitting white headbands for my team just for the sake of applying random crafting to take it all up a notch! LARPers love shiny things... but we worship their creators! :wub2:

In conclusion, I encourage you to experiment with what crafts and materials are available to you. Jesse, I'm sure, will provide an official answer about use of non-authentic or creative materials for making armor -- I'll also mention that many starting LARPers use vinyl armor with paper fasteners for studs! Whatever works. :shades: If you're the type with an engineer's mind and an interest in crafting, I'm sure you'll find no shortage of willing tutors in a new skill at this game. And for those with more money than energy, there are also no end of merchants out there who sell completed armor online (and a Google search will be far more exhaustive than my few recommendations).

Trace Moriarty
 
Great Question... I am often asked this...

Official Answer... Sounds like what you are describing definitely falls into the 2 pt. category per location. I would have to see it to be sure, but it sounds good to me.

Jesse
Owner/GM
 
Thanks Jesse!
I kind of figured. I certainly care about craftsmanship and authenticity and will be leatherworking in the future. I currently have a basement full of foam, plastic, and thrift store goodies so one step at a time.
 
I really don't want to start a new thread for this, but I cannot find any decent 14 gauge riveted, flat-ring armor to save my future life. riveted is required for any HEMA use, flat because it weighs a Lot less. Have any of you found anything that fits the bill?
 
Two things to keep in mind for that:

The 14ga mentioned in the rulebook is often considered 16ga - there are two different measurement systems, American wire gauge and standard wire gauge, and the one in the rulebook isn't used as frequently from what I've seen.

Riveted maille, if I'm not mistaken, usually isn't as thick as butted maille. It doesn't need to be - lighter gauge rings in a riveted shirt are going to be stronger than butted rings a lot of the time. That might make it hard to find riveted maille that technically meets the Alliance requirements for three point armor.
 
2-point....Since that site seems to be using the metric measuring system and that armor is made with 17ga rings, I'm guessing that it's 17ga SWG (Standard Wire Gauge), not AWG (American Wire Gauge). For 3-point armor, you must have 14ga AWG (or 16ga SWG) rings. It's off by just enough to make it 2-point armor. If it were 16ga SWG rings (1ga bigger), it would be 3-point armor.

-Luke G.
 
I would argue that it's 3-point armor. It's more than twice the weight of think geek's aluminum armor. It's flat rings, so even though they are technically thinner in one dimension, they are wider in the other dimension, so they end up being about the same weight and strength. Since it's steel, it's as strong or stronger than any medieval chainmaille.

Most importantly, it's cool and authentic. I'd rather see you wearing that than the nonsense that is washer maille or max-diameter chainmaille.

You should know that Denver has not announced armor marshals, yet.

David Ch.
Denver Plot
 
Sorry to come in late, been waiting for a while for my PW to sign up.

By the book - 2 Point due to gauge like said above.

...but I could make a case for both 2 and 3 point.

If you want to view armor by terms of weight, heat, and mobility (encumbrance), the flat style chain mail rings actually do NOT move as well as the round ones (I found this out the hard way with a shirt once). It seems similar at first, but once you get going its noticeable. The rings are also 9mm ID - which is very close to half the needed ID for 3 point - meaning its heavier and has smaller holes (.625 vs .355)

However, if it's purely by weight/thickness (unrealistic from a RL standpoint in both deflection/absorbtion capability and wearability), it's 2 point.

A lot of the less expensive riveted chainmail is flat rings, as it is easier for the manufacturer to make. You found a good bargain on that, but check ebay throughout the week(s), sometimes you get lucky. If it is mostly a concern about color - make your own. http://theringlord.com is a good start, but you may be able to find colored or aluminum rings cheaper shopping around. Also, making your own coils and making it yourself is cheap cheap cheap, but takes time - and sometimes the pre-cut rings and etc can be comparable. You can get away with 100 bucks for a full butted shirt (Sleeves and it going past mid thigh), 150-ish if you want aluminum.

I cannot stress how heavy chainmail is - especially in the thicker gauges. The lighter steel/aluminum with smaller gauges will stay in the 6-10lb range, but once you start getting near the 14ga stuff you're talking like 25-40+ lbs depending on the ID. It's like lugging around a large bag of cat litter or two all day. I can say for a fact most metal chainmail I've worn (save a superlight aluminum set I got to try on), metal brigandine, and picklebarrel armor made for SCA all weigh more than my 18ga plate mail (but its the difference between wearing a trashcan vs wearing a heavy jacket in terms of mobility). Believe it or not, aluminum is the lightest option - PVC and the Polycarbon rings actually end up heavier.

In terms of alternative materials - although I could write a novel on armor and materials - to my understanding from past larps and the book, it can come down to how the marshal feels. If the look or material is important, of if mobility (encumbrance) is a big deal, and there is flexibility in the rulings - there can be a lot of considerations at hand. Or just at least given the flat bonus 6 points (In genre+mastercraft). I think it would have to be a conversation between the armor marshal and the owner in terms of if say, that hard leather armor would count as lightweight plate, even though you could come by with a pair of scissors to most hard leather armor and cut through it. To my understanding, if you put on the rings (Ringmail) you're set for 2 points for sure.

But thats coming from the nerd part of my brain, I'm not a marshal.

-Mike
 
Also, if you're gunna wear chainmaille at a game, take it easy and wear it at home for a few hours each day until you know you can handle it. We had a guy in SoMN throw out his back wearing chainmail. He had to retire his character and reroll as a scholar.

David "Craig"
Denver Plot
 
Youch.

Honestly, I kinda intentionally picked the cheapest riveted mail version just to see if I could get some wiggle room. If this:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product...Riveted+-+Solid+Flat+Rings+Mild+Steel+-+Large

is SWG, then it should approximate 14 AWG (per http://www.urbanmaille.com/FAQRetrieve.aspx?ID=52710) and pass for 3-point armor, giving a 6 points of protection to belly, chest, and back, 3 for upper arms/shoulders, and depending on the Marshall, 3 for upper legs/groin, and 3 for hands/forearms. - 6 points for Master Crafted and In-Genre, and that'd be a total of 33?! Not a bad day's work for shurt. :mer:

Once upon a time, I was involved with a group called the Rocky Mountain Swordplay Guild, and if anybody wants to learn HEMA, I cannot recommend them enough, they are by far the best. One of their instructors recommended a flat ring riveted hauberk, and because I think that gothic plate gets too much attention, I wanted to go with something much more 'common'. Something that could also be less inaccurate over a longer range of dates. And as for the weight, I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes ever from the movie Men In Black: You'll get used to it, or have a psychotic episode. :)
 
Not too bad at 22lbs. But yea, 33, I'd hope they'd count the upper leg area...

However I'd highly suggest grabbing a bag of cat litter (or sand, salt, anything that is 20 lbs) and carrying it around with you before plunking down $440 bucks. And you'll want to wear a gambeson (Padding) or it's gonna totally chafe - which unfortunately makes things hotter :(
 
Chainmaille is more common in larp than plate.

David "Craig"
Denver Plot
 
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